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Bar Italia Forum -> Bar Italia Forum -> Thoughts on This Is Hardcore, 8 years later... (well 13 now)
Post Info TOPIC: Thoughts on This Is Hardcore, 8 years later... (well 13 now)
andy


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I fuckin' love We Are The Boyz. Jarvis 2nd solo album is already in his mind there. That Owen tracklisting is a mess really, sorry. and you just cant leave out Dishes, that's just wrong.

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Eamonn


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The only notable published books on Pulp (by Messrs Sturdy and Hatherley) share the same opinion of Dishes. Lovely music let down horribly by the lyrics. I don't necessarily agree (I quite like playing and singing it at the piano) but they make good points about Jarvis congratulating himself for attempting to be as hundrum and mundane as he rest of us.

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ArrGee


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Eamonn wrote:

... his choices seem to be:

The Fear
The Professional (instead of Dishes)
Party Hard
Help The Aged
This Is Hardcore
Like A Friend (TV Movie dropped)
A Little Soul

Ladies Man
My Erection (Both of these in place of Seductive Barry)

It's A Dirty World (Sylvia makes way)
We Are The Boyz (I'm A Man goes bye-bye)
Cocaine Socialism (no Glory Days)
The Day After The Revolution

 That is simply a different album.



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Eamonn


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Well yeah, but arguably a better one and in some cases, songs that are more ''This Is Hardcore'' than what ended-up on there.

I wouldn't be surprised if record label pressure/the band's own fear of commercial rejection meant putting Sylvia or I'm A Man on instead of something like The Professional or Ladies Man - two unusual, challenging tracks, a world away from Different Class Pulp, but that seem to reflect the album better instead of the halfway-house efforts of the aforementioned Sylvia and I'm A Man.

The common criticism of TIH is that the second side is frustrating in the quality being uneven and not as brave as the first half. I love the album but I think it's a fair criticism.

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fredthe3rd


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Off topic now and I don't know his stance on Dishes but Martin Aston book was pretty good I thought. Never gets any credit.

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Eamonn


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Actually I'd forgotten about that. You're right, it's decent. I think he managed to get interviews with all the band too, in which they talked in-depth (probably for the first time publicly) about their secret history.

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andy


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Eamonn wrote:

The common criticism of TIH is that the second side is frustrating in the quality being uneven and not as brave as the first half. I love the album but I think it's a fair criticism.

It seems to be a common crisitcism yeah, but i personally think the second half is as strong as the first. the only problem being the tracklisting. Sylvia, Glory Days, Revolution, those are 3 epic tracks that should have been broken apart. 

I doubt there was any pressure from the label, maybe, maybe not. But in 98, Pulp had the power to do whatever they wanted really. If the label had pressured the band, then Street Operator and You are the One would be on there. and This is hardcore wouldnt have been a single.

As for Dishes, i dont see the lyrics criticism. By 98, he was back on earth and trying to explain it. The past 10 years prove that Dishes isnt a fraud. 



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Perfect


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saw119 wrote:
Perfect wrote:
 But I would like a non-vocoder version of "Laides man". 

 Have you heard the version that Jarvis did live with Air?

 No, is it available somewhere? 



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saw119


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Perfect wrote:
saw119 wrote:
Perfect wrote:
 But I would like a non-vocoder version of "Laides man". 

 Have you heard the version that Jarvis did live with Air?

 No, is it available somewhere? 

 I've just put it in the 2007 account. The whole show is worth hearing though, I think it was Weed who uploaded the whole thing in the request a bootleg thread.



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Eamonn


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andy wrote:

I doubt there was any pressure from the label, maybe, maybe not. But in 98, Pulp had the power to do whatever they wanted really. If the label had pressured the band, then Street Operator and You are the One would be on there. and This is hardcore wouldnt have been a single.

 

 

You're probably right (from Jarvis' notes about Street Operator and You Are The One it seems so), Pulp seemed pretty much in control after how well Different Class had done. 

But you never know what they were thinking when choosing the songs -whether adding a couple of more standard rock/pop songs would soften the album a bit and make it more appealing. 

Rather than diving completely off the cliff marked ''commercial success'' they kind of did a Jimmy from Quadrophenia on it. Jarvis has already admitted he lost his bottle over Cocaine Socialism (personally I'm glad he did, I prefer Glory Days). And as Hatherley mentions in his book the likes of Dirty World, Ladies Man and The Professional sound ''much more likely than the album's apologies and fudges''.



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andy


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Yeah it was a band move more likely. I guess Russell leaving left Jarvis explore his pop/rock influences a bit more.

As for Cocaine socialism, i prefere Glory Days as well; It's much more complete and flawless. I used to not really like CS, but nowadays, i think they should have released it as a come back single or a stand alone single and release Glory Days on the record. Imagine the impact, It would have gone down in History as the band that saw it coming all along. But i guess they didnt want the trouble.



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Stephen


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I love Glory Days, but I think Cocaine Socialism has the edge. Slightly better lyrics, and the brass is wonderful.

I had always thought a major part of Russell leaving wasn't so much the band's change in musical style, but the fact that Jarvis had taken to coming in with his own completed songs (i.e. Help the Aged) and telling the band that they would be playing them. When you consider how many of the pre-TIH songs came from jams and half formed songs, it must have been pretty galling to be treated like session musicians, without any say in what was being composed in your name.

Presumably someone like Steve was more ok with this style of working, as shown by him continuing to play with Jarvis on his solo albums when he had even less say in what went on. Does he have any songwriting credits on JC or FC...?

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Ian


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My opinions have changed again and I've got to say that "This is Hardcore" is fantastic but is (very slightly) let down by the "Dishes" lyrics. It's a good song but the lyrics seem to lack a bit of imagination. I'd have replaced it with "Like a Friend"; I think the slow first half would serve as a bit of a comedown after the grinding finish of "The Fear" and the louder second half would get you in the mood for "Party Hard".



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Ian


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As for singles, has anyone considered that they may have been in a no-win situation? What I'm saying is that they could have released "Glory Days" as a single and been slated for releasing something that sounds like "Common People" but instead, they released the title track as a single and got slated for being "dark". Does anyone follow?



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Perfect


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saw119 wrote:
Perfect wrote:
saw119 wrote:
Perfect wrote:
 But I would like a non-vocoder version of "Laides man". 

 Have you heard the version that Jarvis did live with Air?

 No, is it available somewhere? 

 I've just put it in the 2007 account. The whole show is worth hearing though, I think it was Weed who uploaded the whole thing in the request a bootleg thread.

 lovley version, thank you so much! I'll look it up. 



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ArrGee


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Ian wrote:

... but is (very slightly) let down by the "Dishes" lyrics. It's a good song but the lyrics seem to lack a bit of imagination.

 I think Dishes is a great song both lyrically and musically.   The lyrics give a sense of humility and a sense of not having to care about the big  picture, but doing what we can while we are here.  The understatement makes it interesting.

I also think Hardcore is more or less a perfect album.  It is far more than the sum of its parts and the tinkering suggested would lessen the album not improve it.  Much like a football team, just selecting the best eleven doesn't necessarilly make the best team.  Help The Aged does jar a little for me as I never liked the single, but I can see why it makes the cut and had it just been a part of the album I'd probably just see it in the context of the album,

Experts, pah smile



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andy


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Yeah what's with the hate with Dishes. TIH is a perfect record indeed, but a double album would have made it even more classic.

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Eamonn


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It's all about opinions innit.

I mean, when will Arsenal ever stop being 'potentially'' brilliant with all their young lads and just win a fucking trophy?

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andy


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with that team ? never...

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Jazza


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How can a song that starts with 'I am not Jesus, though I have the same initials' do any wrong? I think it's definitely one of the best songs of the album - if any had to be replaced, I'd say Seductive Barry

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fredthe3rd


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Seductive Barry isn't one of my favourites but it's got some great lines in it. "I don't know where you got those clothes but you can rake them off if it makes you feel better" and "When the immovable object meets the unstoppable force there's nothing you can do about it." and "I will light your cigarette with a star that has fallen from the sky."

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Jazza


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raking clothes off? That sounds painful. I don't dislike Seductive Barry but if it could be replaced by something better I wouldn't say no

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fredthe3rd


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Ha! Well if anyone's found an easier way to take clothes off let me know. Same goes for a better method of juicing an orange than squeezing it in your eye.

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ArrGee


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Eamonn wrote:

It's all about opinions innit.

I mean, when will Arsenal ever stop being 'potentially'' brilliant with all their young lads and just win a fucking trophy?

Even on Pulp forums, I get this disbelief

Truth is, Arsenal ain't so great, nor have they been in the five years.  Too lightweight in the middle and soft at the back and dependent on an injury prone super striker.  Once RvP gets injured, they'll be slipping down the table.



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fredthe3rd


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Skilfully avoiding the football shaped dog turd outside the corner shop: the instrumental introduction to TIH (song) is one of the finest things ever.

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