OK so this is the spoiler thread so we can speak openly. I was thinking of the part where Jarvis was said to have launched himself at Russell and it came to blows! That has stuck in my mind. Also, then I think you mentioned the part about Steve calling Nick and them and Jarvis then sitting in Nick's car to discuss Russell. To be honest I like them all. I play music myself and I can always see in a band how everyone has something to give and bands are more than the sum of their parts so that saddened me but it's reality and you want the truth. Nick and Jarvis have both said before about how they hated when someone left the bands they liked so I'm sure they get that. I like though that overall Nick can see the positives and that all in all it's not a bad job to do with your one precious life! It never hurts to keep searching for sunshine or whatever Milne said.Overall I probably want Nick to not be so modest. He's good and drummers can transform a song. I'm reminded of Jarvis saying about his son playing drums and how he wished he'd aim higher because drummers get the most abuse but in later years he's said it was clever of his son to play an instrument he knows little about. Defo Nick seemed to give the view that drummers are lower down on the food chain but I think that might be more genre specific maybe.
I liked the drum specific stuff. I would've liked to hear more about recording at Roger Taylor's! I love Queen and love Roger. Any chats with Roger about drums?
I enjoyed Russell's book more if I'm honest but I felt for Mark a bit with that one. 

Edit: I shouldn't be bothered by any of these things. We don't know these people personally but they have created amazing stuff together and you want them all to get along. Anyway, interested in what the rest of thought.

Zurdta wrote:

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lipglossed wrote:

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Nick's book is great, his writing style is great, it's full of interesting anecdotes well-told -  I think I prefer it to Freak Out the Squares, though both are obviously grand (and for me, So It Started There has the advantage of being a nice shiny hardback rather than an e-book).

And in all honesty, yes. It's polite and effusive and brimming with praise - about his current bandmates, about Steve and even Russell. Young Nick is clearly in awe of Jarvis, and even now he's grateful to share a band with him. But the book is quite damning; you could argue that despite being less manneredly, knowingly theatrical than Russell's delightful tome, it's more matter-of-factly, bluntly, expository of the tensions and hierarchies within Pulp.

I really don't want to get all gossipy here, but to be quite honest, yeah, there's a reading in there that Jarvis dominated the decision-making, Steve had his ear, and no-one else, really, got a look in. And Russell's no angel in Pulp's history - all that stuff about 'it isn't cool to be in Pulp anymore', and then Nick's quite honest about how frustrating it was with Senior's leisurely Russ-bus touring meaning he was in-and-out all the time (even without flying, he probably could've made a few more of the gigs). But I begin to sympathise with Russell a lot more, which is ironic as Nick's obviously got a load of justified frustrations with him.

But devil's advocate - Russell's point of view - years battling with Fire, trying to pull the group together to rehearse, racking up debt, then suddenly it's over - Jarvis and Candida have moved away - and that's that then. And then suddenly Pulp are back together again, because Jarvis has met Steve. And after the studio sessions? They go and sign to bloody Fire again. So now it's hands-to-the-grindstone, trying to work with Suzanne Catty to tear Pulp away from Fire again, except they end up hating each other and fire her... and then they go and make a record with a fashionable producer who lies to Russell and cuts out his parts (and the others don't argue with him). Russell, Candida and Nick are shut out of the decision-making process. Then Mark joins and Russell's role is diminished further (and poor Mark gets blamed - what was he meant to do? Say no?) But yeah, as for Russell...who wouldn't quit, after all that? Didn't they kind of push him away, really? Should he have just shut up and swallowed it? I don't know. But to be quite honest, I don't think I would have stayed, either. 

I don't really buy into that reading completely, to be honest, even if I've just gone and typed all that up. Russell does seem like a pretty difficult person to work with, and I don't blame the band for simply having had enough by 2012. But also, you sort of wonder if that was engendered earlier in the band's history...

There's certainly some stuff there that doesn't reflect well on certain bandmembers. I feel for Nick, having been overruled all the time and not really seeming to have that much clout in a band he'd been in since 1986.

 

[BOOK SPOILERS] 

Spoiler

I mean, Jarvis and Steve wanted Russell out, but Nick and Candida didn't (as the latter told Pulp People, she asked him to stay). Nick says he was called up by Steve, spoke to him and Jarvis, disagreed with them but was overruled... and there's no indication that they asked Candida or Mark for their opinion either. In fact, I think it's fair to say that Candida, who hardly appears in the book past a certain point, probably got shafted with a lot of the decision-making - there's lots of times in the book where it seems they didn't even bother to ask her. (FWIW Nick was also proven right about the production on Pink Glove, while we're at it.)

 It doesn't surprise me that things petered out without much warmth in 2002 if not everyone in the band had much of a say. It can't have kept everyone so invested.

 

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[Disclaimer: I haven't read Nick's book properly yet.] [Russell's book did come in a lovely hard back version too - just saying!]

The thing to remember with the reunion tour 'meandering' is that Russell says he was only ever going to do 10 gigs based around the 2011 summer festivals. This was agreed with Jarvis - and I would assume, Russell being Russell, there was a contract stating this. Of course Russell is stubborn - he wouldn't/couldn't commit to anything more than what he signed up for. He was having a lovely leisurely summer tour of UK & Europe and that was that.  

I get the impression Nick has not read Russell's book - which is a shame because Russell's book is actually, in general, very lovely. I am biased of course, and I have read it perhaps more than anyone - other than his editor. 

And regarding the Mark stuff Russell wrote - he does turn it around to say that he (Russell) then had a hissy fit and made himself unpopular with the roadies and pointed out that Mark is actually a really lovely person. And in interviews promoting his book he has said that all the Pulp members are decent people. There was no real bad-mouthing of anyone - not even Fire or Suzanne Catty as he chooses to mention them obliquely or not at all.

It was interesting that Nick said no one knew Russell was invited back for the 2011 gigs until they arrived at rehearsals and there he was.

And it was awkward for everyone. 

-- Edited by Zurdta on Wednesday 27th of September 2023 11:06:32 PM

-- Edited by Zurdta on Wednesday 27th of September 2023 11:09:40 PM

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 Ahh of course Russell's book had a lovely hardback - I'm just saying that I might be biased as I haven't been able to get my hands on one :) so that could affect my opinion!

I do think I'd rather do a tour the Russell way than the way the rest of the band did. It does seem a bit nicer, although trying to get out there and play to as many fans as possible can't really be faulted either. But it does create that separation, and it's a bit of a shame that they didn't all travel together as one group. I suppose they might've felt he wasn't really being a 'team player' though. End of the day it's a big can of worms. But like I say, I have sympathy for him.

In any case, I do think Nick's book is quite fair and even-handed. He does talk about how he was disappointed when Russell left the group.

So no e-book for Nick. Which is a bummer for me, as I prefer to read on my kindle - eyes not what they used to be and all that.

But nice pic on the back of the paperback version.

Jean wrote:

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OK so this is the spoiler thread so we can speak openly. I was thinking of the part where Jarvis was said to have launched himself at Russell and it came to blows! That has stuck in my mind. Also, then I think you mentioned the part about Steve calling Nick and them and Jarvis then sitting in Nick's car to discuss Russell. To be honest I like them all. I play music myself and I can always see in a band how everyone has something to give and bands are more than the sum of their parts so that saddened me but it's reality and you want the truth. Nick and Jarvis have both said before about how they hated when someone left the bands they liked so I'm sure they get that. I like though that overall Nick can see the positives and that all in all it's not a bad job to do with your one precious life! It never hurts to keep searching for sunshine or whatever Milne said.Overall I probably want Nick to not be so modest. He's good and drummers can transform a song. I'm reminded of Jarvis saying about his son playing drums and how he wished he'd aim higher because drummers get the most abuse but in later years he's said it was clever of his son to play an instrument he knows little about. Defo Nick seemed to give the view that drummers are lower down on the food chain but I think that might be more genre specific maybe.
I liked the drum specific stuff. I would've liked to hear more about recording at Roger Taylor's! I love Queen and love Roger. Any chats with Roger about drums?
I enjoyed Russell's book more if I'm honest but I felt for Mark a bit with that one. 

Edit: I shouldn't be bothered by any of these things. We don't know these people personally but they have created amazing stuff together and you want them all to get along. Anyway, interested in what the rest of thought.

-- Edited by Jean on Wednesday 27th of September 2023 09:09:24 PM

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Jarvis a launched himself at Russell? huh?

oh wow. sounds like just typical band mates being pissy at each other then. 

Nah, sorry, Beta, I hope my posts above don't put you off reading the book. Being in a band is hard and a successful one must bring a lot of pressures. I mean I've read about Fleetwood Mac and that's like reading a script from Eastenders ;) this was not like an Eastenders script. Have a read!

Edit: probably best off not reading the spoilers. You only ever know by reading for yourself. Some people didnt like Russell's book but i loved that. 
-- Edited by Jean on Sunday 1st of October 2023 10:12:37 PM

SarahAWilson wrote:

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Jarvis has a tendency to get quite pissy at times, and it's been documented.

1) Hits DVD Home Movies - Jarvis gets snappy at Nick for losing/ not having his keys.
2) Both Lorelei 96 and 98. Watch how fucked off he gets with the levels all over the place on Disco 2000. The latter speaks for itself, especially after Mark came in late with Common People.
3) Again, Jarvis getting really pissy at Mark at the first night at Brixton in 2011 for tuning his guitar while he was talking, calling him a dickhead and telling him to "Fuck Off" in front of 5000 people. Yikes.

John Quinn, whom a few of you know on here, also stated that Jarvis was had a bit of a hissy fit at Mark backstage at V96. So apparently Mark got the brunt of Jarvis's ire sometimes, probably because he's smaller, younger and isn't the type to fight back.

Spoiler

Especially when a drunk drummer with an injured wrist tries to assault you with kitchen implements

-- Edited by SarahAWilson on Sunday 1st of October 2023 11:22:28 PM

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Oh I forgot all about the Home Movies missing keys one. That was actually very funny. Reminded me of a cranky old lady being cranky. 

No idea about the ongoing Jarvis vs Mark thing. 

Sleeve wrote:

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SarahAWilson wrote:

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Jarvis has a tendency to get quite pissy at times, and it's been documented.

1) Hits DVD Home Movies - Jarvis gets snappy at Nick for losing/ not having his keys.
2) Both Lorelei 96 and 98. Watch how fucked off he gets with the levels all over the place on Disco 2000. The latter speaks for itself, especially after Mark came in late with Common People.
3) Again, Jarvis getting really pissy at Mark at the first night at Brixton in 2011 for tuning his guitar while he was talking, calling him a dickhead and telling him to "Fuck Off" in front of 5000 people. Yikes.

John Quinn, whom a few of you know on here, also stated that Jarvis was had a bit of a hissy fit at Mark backstage at V96. So apparently Mark got the brunt of Jarvis's ire sometimes, probably because he's smaller, younger and isn't the type to fight back.

Spoiler

Especially when a drunk drummer with an injured wrist tries to assault you with kitchen implements

-- Edited by SarahAWilson on Sunday 1st of October 2023 11:22:28 PM

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 I don't want to stir things (and of course all respect to JC) but I also suspected it's partly because Mark is a more conventionally competent musician too. There's also the shitty comment about tripping over guitar leads during the band intros on FEELING CALLED LIVE and I remember as an kid seeing that footage of J deliberately nearly diving into Mark at the Smash Hits Poll Winners party and thinking 'bloody hell- what's that about?'. Anyway....

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I took that as just stage theatrics..but I could be wrong. 

lipglossed wrote:

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SarahAWilson wrote:

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The Russell-Tussle occurs on page 290 for anyone who wants to have a gander.

Looking at Pulpwiki, I would hazard a guess that this was La Bataclan 6/12/95, I believe it's the concert Mark "talks" about in his section of FEELING CALLED LIVE. Iirc correctly, everyone got lashed at the Smash Hits Poll Winner's Party and some of them were so hungover they missed their flight back to France (they had played Nantes on the 4th before heading back to England for the SHPWP), and when they finally got to Paris, it was in the middle of a welfare strike, so all the roads were gridlocked.

Mark says that it was the worst concert they'd ever played. I guess we know why now....but at least he managed to get his laundry finished!

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 Incidentally: it was the Bataclan, the climactic song was Mis-Shapes, the bootlegs are on FEELINGCALLEDLIVE, and you can actually listen to everything going horribly wrong. And soil yourselves laughing.

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The only one I found on there is from the 5th. Same one?

Beta wrote:

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lipglossed wrote:

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SarahAWilson wrote:

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The Russell-Tussle occurs on page 290 for anyone who wants to have a gander.

Looking at Pulpwiki, I would hazard a guess that this was La Bataclan 6/12/95, I believe it's the concert Mark "talks" about in his section of FEELING CALLED LIVE. Iirc correctly, everyone got lashed at the Smash Hits Poll Winner's Party and some of them were so hungover they missed their flight back to France (they had played Nantes on the 4th before heading back to England for the SHPWP), and when they finally got to Paris, it was in the middle of a welfare strike, so all the roads were gridlocked.

Mark says that it was the worst concert they'd ever played. I guess we know why now....but at least he managed to get his laundry finished!

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 Incidentally: it was the Bataclan, the climactic song was Mis-Shapes, the bootlegs are on FEELINGCALLEDLIVE, and you can actually listen to everything going horribly wrong. And soil yourselves laughing.

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The only one I found on there is from the 5th. Same one?

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 Yes, that's the same concert. Might be an error.