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lipglossed


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Anna wrote:

There are no tq+. There are only gays, lesbians and bisexuals. And stop reclaiming the word queer.

It is fashionable for modern straight girls to idealize and fetishize homosexuality. And these straight girls, who consider themselves trans gay men and have no relation to real homosexuals, now make up a large part of the so-called LGBTQ+ movement. It's such a shame.

[LOUD WRONG BUZZER NOISE]

Zurdta wrote:

I always felt Jarvis's lyrics echoed my life: A bullied child. A young single mother, demonised by the Government & press of the day. A working class person with aspirations and dreams.

I was someone who never fit in anywhere at any time. Until Britpop hit me in 1994. Then there seemed to be many bands that understood - after all they were around my own age so there was a lot of shared history, and, very importantly, a shared pop culture. Which is why I was dismayed (to say the least) when Britpop turned into Laddism and all the glamour, intelligence and optimism drained out of it.

Looking at Pulp from a distance of 30 years I can see how many people, feeling marginalised in some way, would be drawn into the music and the lyrics. There is an inclusivity to the attitude of Pulp - the make up, the clothing, the posturing as well as the lyrics.

Of course the band is more than the music and reading the thoughts and opinions of all the band members over many (many, many) years it is obvious that they are all very much open to the LGBTQ+ community and all for being inclusive to those marginalised groups (the odd clumsy remark here and there aside!)

I see no reason why Misfits could not apply to any LGBTQ+ person, and not just us freaks in the jumble sale clothing. Pretty sure it all overlaps - we are all more than one thing, right? And no one is going to gatekeep here, are they? What you find personally relatable, what connections you make that make you enjoy the music more is a very good thing.

TL;DR: I think we all project what we want onto a band and there are many ideas and interpretations of the music that are fun to discuss. Without bigotry.

 



-- Edited by Zurdta on Monday 24th of July 2023 01:30:32 PM

This is such an absolutely lovely write-up! Perfectly articulated. 



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Anna


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Queering the Mis-Shapes
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Zurdta wrote:

Anna, you have a problem.

You are incorrect.

You may have these opinions but they are narrowminded at best and bigoted at worst.

This is not the first time you have made such remarks.

 And for this opinion I always get a ton of hate. If Pulp accept people who are rejected by society, then don't I also deserve acceptance and respect?



-- Edited by Anna on Monday 24th of July 2023 01:58:05 PM

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weej


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Thanks Violin Thing and Zurdta for excellent posts. The "Jesus it must be great to be straight" line has always stood out to me, what ever did he mean by this? I think back to Jonathan Richman's "I'm Straight" where the word very much doesn't mean "not gay" and wonder how it has shifted in usage over the years. Don't think there are many other lyrics with that kind of ambiguity, none that come to mind anyway, but Pulp certainly had some photoshoots which are at the very least sexually ambiguous.

Not so much thanks Anna, but it seems to have already been addressed, so let's move on.

Most important thing to stress here, I think: alternative interpretations to a band don't in any way invalidate your own feelings or interpretation, I wouldn't tell anyone the way they relate to the music is wrong. But having a variety of ways of listening for different fans is just really interesting to me, and I want to hear more.



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weej


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Anna, being tolerant also means not putting up with intolerance, there's no contradiction.

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lipglossed


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weej wrote:

Thanks Violin Thing and Zurdta for excellent posts. The "Jesus it must be great to be straight" line has always stood out to me, what ever did he mean by this? I think back to Jonathan Richman's "I'm Straight" where the word very much doesn't mean "not gay" and wonder how it has shifted in usage over the years. Don't think there are many other lyrics with that kind of ambiguity, none that come to mind anyway, but Pulp certainly had some photoshoots which are at the very least sexually ambiguous.

Not so much thanks Anna, but it seems to have already been addressed, so let's move on.

Most important thing to stress here, I think: alternative interpretations to a band don't in any way invalidate your own feelings or interpretation, I wouldn't tell anyone the way they relate to the music is wrong. But having a variety of ways of listening for different fans is just really interesting to me, and I want to hear more.

 

So on one hand, yeah. I'm a nerdy weirdo who used to be called "gay" in school, I read books and was gangly and crap at sport and was shit with girls, convinced it was 'true love' every time one spoke to me for 5 minutes. I liked different music to my peers, and I was a bit leftie and came home to my parents who were probably complaining about David Cameron or Nick Clegg when I got through the door.

But also, on a certain level, I'm probably not the best person to be a Pulp fan. I'm very middle-middle-class - my parents are both university academics - I went to a private school (!), one of those liberal 'independent' types that posit themselves as being intellectual rather than old money, and in reality are Lib Dem factories. I'm now doing a humanities degree at a uni where a massive % of people have a large amount of privilege (and are very in-your-face with it, they wear f***ing signet rings!) - I'm looking for a minimum-wage job but I don't need one to survive. I feel a need to be upfront about that, you can't and shouldn't really hide it.

I also have a very left-wing point of view, and never particularly hidden it either (I remember being told by some kid in 2019 that "you only vote Labour cos you're poor and you've probably got a small garden"). I think we should abolish private schools (and little shits like that kid), I think we should redistribute wealth in this country, I think if I said what I wanted to say about the ruling and political classes I'd probably get both banned and also reported to Prevent. Not that I'm a huge fan of the Labour party right now either. Austerity is a murder machine.

Pulp's music is my favourite of anyone's but I'd never want to declare an ownership of it, I'm conscious on some level that it is Not For You, that I will Never Understand How It Feels. My job is knowing that and reflecting on it without being a self-conceited congratulatory arsewipe. But Jarvis also writes so well about the self-absorption of my social class, of the useless paraphernalia that clutters up His 'N' Hers, the matching towels, pink quilted eiderdowns and everything. There's a quote from a Jarvis interview circa 1999 - "Being middle class is having two Sunday newspapers in your house and a Dyson vacuum cleaner. It is a certain materialistic way of furnishing your own coffin as comfortably as possible, a terrible blandness. Nobody should aspire to that." I love the way Jarvis punctures the middle class while making it quite clear that they are neither his focus nor his audience - the posh girl in Common People gets moved out of the picture, he smiles and holds her hand and humours her and from then on in, he refuses to centre her, she's off to the side, just out of focus beyond the camera - the way the working class are treated by the middle class, who will just look past them on the street. Jarvis rips apart the middle class without ever giving them the spotlight. It's brilliant.

The working class reality of Pulp's music is, really, what I think got them patronised and packaged as a kitsch novelty by the press. Like, listen to his accent! Never mind Russell's! And they wear such funny clothes! We're supposed to believe that Blur were the ones who 'went arty' (by imitating Pavement guitar scronk) while Pulp disappeared. Pulp were arty from the beginning! It's not even This Is Hardcore - 'I Spy' already says more than any of those mid-90s Britpop records, musically and lyrically. And it is the sound of decades of class resentment being harnessed into a finessed plan of revenge. And then people like me come and write about it and say what's it about.

I guess what I'm trying to say with all of this is that who you are as a person, how you listen to music, it can be fluid. I've absolutely fallen in love with Pulp - I see no reason why the LGBTQIA+ community (which I'm also part of) couldn't see something to love, too. Because - at the end of the day - it's not necessarily about whether you detect little undertones, or certain lines in songs - it's the entirety of what a band is and says, it's how the music sounds, how the singer sounds and the things he says. And you're allowed to love those things, and with Pulp being a batch of misfit socialists, that's the sort of people you are going to attract. And it's probably a demographic with its fair share of queer folk, too.



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Zurdta


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Anna wrote:
Zurdta wrote:

Anna, you have a problem.

You are incorrect.

You may have these opinions but they are narrowminded at best and bigoted at worst.

This is not the first time you have made such remarks.

 And for this opinion I always get a ton of hate. If Pulp accept people who are rejected by society, then don't I also deserve acceptance and respect?



-- Edited by Anna on Monday 24th of July 2023 01:57:08 PM

No.

In short, views that explicity wish to not only exlude a section of society, but actually deny their existence, is incompatible with any inclusive & accepting group. This is not a difficult concept.

Also not accepting of fascists - but we figured that would be understood. 

You are not adding to this discussion - you are deliberately trolling. You may disagree the point being made by weej - fair enough - but you are deliberately stating your opinion that TQ+ people do not exist. You understand that your opinion is abhorrent to many people - and you certainly understand it is an opinion that is abhorrent here.

We understand that you are never going to alter that opinion. Therefore it is pointless debating the issue further.

 



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lipglossed


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weej wrote:

Thanks Violin Thing and Zurdta for excellent posts. The "Jesus it must be great to be straight" line has always stood out to me, what ever did he mean by this? I think back to Jonathan Richman's "I'm Straight" where the word very much doesn't mean "not gay" and wonder how it has shifted in usage over the years. Don't think there are many other lyrics with that kind of ambiguity, none that come to mind anyway, but Pulp certainly had some photoshoots which are at the very least sexually ambiguous.

 I always took it to mean 'conventional', and therefore 'boring and dull'... but when you listen to the song, I can't quite buy it, because the word has shifted so much. I think it could be a deliberately ambiguous choice, but also a lot of queer people are probably going to equate being straight with conventionality and there's an implicit stance on the staid typical straight relationship in that song (because her new squeeze is so boring and probably doesn't respect her much as a woman), so even with the original meaning of the lyric, it's something that's accessible to LGBTQIA+.



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Zurdta


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weej wrote:

 The "Jesus it must be great to be straight" line has always stood out to me, what ever did he mean by this? I think back to Jonathan Richman's "I'm Straight" where the word very much doesn't mean "not gay" and wonder how it has shifted in usage over the years. Don't think there are many other lyrics with that kind of ambiguity, none that come to mind anyway, but Pulp certainly had some photoshoots which are at the very least sexually ambiguous.

Not so much thanks Anna, but it seems to have already been addressed, so let's move on.

Most important thing to stress here, I think: alternative interpretations to a band don't in any way invalidate your own feelings or interpretation, I wouldn't tell anyone the way they relate to the music is wrong. But having a variety of ways of listening for different fans is just really interesting to me, and I want to hear more.

Straight was connected to someone not willing to break the law - hence the term 'going straight'. Back in 1994 around my area, UK Midlands, being referred to as 'straight' was attuned to being 'straitlaced' - I was often called 'straight' because I didn't do drugs. "Nah, not her, she's straight." So the drugs being distributed around the pub would pass me by (man, the 90s were a strange time!) So, a way of calling someone boring, or someone with more moral fibre? (They were calling me boring, I know!)  

So straight meant boring. Within the song, I always thought it was a sarcastic remark referring to the woman being stuck with her boring boyfriend/husband and living a traditional husband/wife life, which fits with the theme of the His'n'Hers album. Jesus, it must be great to be straight! 

He's so straight, as in not only boring, but also unwilling to bend or compromise or open his mind to anything outside his traditional idea of sex - 90s vanilla sex - so she got a toy to reach the places he never goes! And who can blame her? (Remember this also a time when Ann Summers' Parties were all the rage for housewives!) 

And with the chorus referring to the first time - which for many is a very straightforward, missionary, functional experience - it seems her sexual experiences have not expanded, with the exception of the toy. Is Jarvis offering something more kinky perhaps? If he could only whisk her away from the straight boyfriend/husband...

Back to the word, straight. The meaning has changed over the years. The expanded modern meaning - the various interpretations - opens of whole new world of what not being straight could mean and enhances the frisson of the song! Afterall, there is more variety in sex toys now, so the implication is that the sexual/relationship experiences outside of the traditional husband/wife roles, could be more exciting, more unusual and more pleasureable especially when one considers the fluidity of gender and sexuality.

What Jarvis meant at the time of writing (if he meant anything) and how he views it now may also have changed. 

 

[Side note: Songs are more than their composition and execution - what we, the listeners, bring with our own experiences and connections are as important as the song itself. One cannot meaningfully listen to music or view a piece of art without those connections. Unless you are a Philistine and do not want to indulge in meaningful listening/viewing - like the straight guy in the song, eh?]



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lipglossed


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It's kind of indicative of Pulp's fringe-ness, isn't it? There's something powerful about the idea that it's the outcasts and misfits who are better at this stuff, that the mainstream idea of sex - predicated on being a muscley hunk of the kind that terrorised young Jarvis - is hopeless, and that Jarvis has power in his ability to approach this stuff right. It's quite subversive.

Probably my favourite song by Pulp when you boil everything down.



-- Edited by lipglossed on Monday 24th of July 2023 03:55:20 PM

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Zurdta


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lipglossed wrote:

It's kind of indicative of Pulp's fringe-ness, isn't it? There's something powerful about the idea that it's the outcasts and misfits who are better at this stuff, that the mainstream idea of sex - predicated on being a muscley hunk of the kind that terrorised young Jarvis - is hopeless, and that Jarvis has power in his ability to approach this stuff right. It's quite subversive.

Probably my favourite song by Pulp when you boil everything down.



-- Edited by lipglossed on Monday 24th of July 2023 03:52:04 PM

 Yes. 



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andy


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Well, that escalated quickly ! I wont be so harsh on Anna, as i'm anti communities, any form of... I think they are the cancer of society. but i've always been an outcast, so what do i know !

thanx for the "straight" line explanation, very interesting !

As for the Pulp "pose" in some photos or videos being ambiguous, it lies within the british males population right ?

Even Oasis fans and football hooligans talk about hair, kiss each other on lips and hug. It always surprised me as a foreigner. It's like they don't know where they stand sexually. anyone got an explanation for that ?





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Eamonn


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Dunno about that. Italian men can be quite affectionate to each other, (and French and Spanish too), in my experience. More than the prim Brits.

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lipglossed


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I think it depends on individuals' security in their masculinity.

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Eamonn


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Sure but in Italia it's common for men to call each other "bello" and give a warm embrace.

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andy


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lipglossed wrote:

I think it depends on individuals' security in their masculinity.

Well for the British guys i've known it was more a fear of opposite sex and not knowing how to behave around them. Dont know about italians or spanish. 

Schools are boys and girls in the UK ? 



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lipglossed


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andy wrote:
Schools are boys and girls in the UK ? 

 That's quite antiquated. Only some of them are now, most are mixed.



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weej


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andy wrote:


Even Oasis fans and football hooligans talk about hair, kiss each other on lips and hug. It always surprised me as a foreigner. It's like they don't know where they stand sexually. anyone got an explanation for that ?


 

Afraid this is very much not my experience of British masculinity, especially not in the 90s!



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Eamonn


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Me neither in 2000s Oireland.

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andy


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weej wrote:
andy wrote:


Even Oasis fans and football hooligans talk about hair, kiss each other on lips and hug. It always surprised me as a foreigner. It's like they don't know where they stand sexually. anyone got an explanation for that ?


 

Afraid this is very much not my experience of British masculinity, especially not in the 90s!

 Depends on the town maybe ? Ive seen that a lot from oasis fans from Manchester in the early 00s

 

especially hair and hugs, kiss when drunk only



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andy


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Eamonn wrote:

Me neither in 2000s Oireland.

 The country of Neil Hannon or the other one ?

just for divine comedy thank you Ireland !



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Eamonn


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Yeah, Republic/South. Neil is Derry, North, isn't he?

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lipglossed


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Believe so!

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weej


Someone Like The Moon

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This is very instructive re: exact geography

genius.com/The-divine-comedy-sunrise-lyrics

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Ian


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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the line "I've kissed your mother twice and now I'm working on your dad". Taken at face value, it would imply that he is bisexual but I've always thought it was a mechanism to get in with the daughter. He doesn't say that he is working towards kissing the dad so perhaps he's trying to butter him up so that the daughter is his for the taking, perhaps by buying him a drink or something.

Oh, and I've always thought that Jarvis is talking to two different people at the start of "Razzmatazz" - the trouble with person 1's brother is he's always sleeping with person 2's mother.

-- Edited by Ian on Monday 24th of July 2023 07:57:03 PM

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lipglossed


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Afraid to say I disagree about both of those!

I think "I've kissed your mother twice, and now I'm working on your dad" is as it reads. I think "twice" gives the game away. He's kissed your mother *twice*, so now he's going to do it to your dad, too. The protagonist might be bisexual, or he might be secure enough in his own masculinity that it doesn't matter.

The Razzmatazz one I've always thought was a deliberately nonsensical, playground insult. Suits the bitter vibe of the song. It's a slightly powerless pisstake from a bitter dumpee.



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