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weej


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Something I've been thinking a bit about over the past week, if not of interest, feel free to skip.

I've been doing a lot of field recording in London this year, and one of the themes I'm going for is protests/picket lines/vigils/etc. One of the events I went to along these lines was the vigil for Brianna Ghey outside the Department of Education. There were a thousand or so trans teenagers there and as I walked and listened to them I was surprised at how familiar they seemed to me. Kind of gawky, slightly pretentious but over-reaching rather than arrogant, not sure how to hold themselves or look or converse with other people, but also quite excited about the possibilities of the world, and dressing... experimentally. Reader, I am also describing myself aged 15-18, 100%.

Now I should maybe say at this point that not only am I not trans, I am in fact a cisgendered heterosexual chubby balding middle-aged man from the West Midlands. (Well, most of those things anyway.) But when I was 15-18 there really were not a lot of people I felt were like me. At school I was weird, at sixth form I was weird, at university, sadly, I was still weird. The only time I communicated with anyone who seemed to be from my universe was when I met Pulp fans. When I heard Mis-Shapes for the first time back in 1995, you could say that it resonated with me, and why the criticism of the song has always seemed to me to be missing the point entirely.

A little over a week ago in Sheffield Arena, I was standing behind a lesbian couple, and watched as they acted out every lyric of This Is Hardcore, it was amazing, you only get that back in row Q. Then as I left I did a little people watching. It was only a minority, but there were all the gawky, awkward people I remembered, and quite a few of them were obviously LGBTQ in one way or another.

So, here's my question for the Bar Italia Forum, and a bit surprised that it hasn't come up before (I know most of us are gloomy middle-aged introverts, so perhaps it isn't that surprising) -

Are Pulp A Queer Band?

Now I know that the actual members of the group are all straight, including Jarvis of course. And I think most people on here are too, including me, to be fair. But there were a LOAD of non-straight people there at the arena, and I feel like this may be A Thing. If they were a new band in 2023, can you imagine how much this would be Definitely A Thing?

So, any thoughts? This may just end up being a review of Mis-Shapes, but maybe it's something else. Let me know.



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saw119


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Don't have much time because I've got to leave for work in a minute but wanted to post on this. The short answer is, I don't really know but surely a band like Pulp, who embrace outsiderdom so wholly must surely act as a magnet for marginalised groups in society. I was attracted to them in the early 90's because they articulated a sense of being not 'normal'. I don't remember there being a highly visible LGBTQ+ movement in indie music in the mid 90's but I'm sure a lot of that demographic were there at the time. If younger generations find solace and kindred spirits in Pulp then that's fantastic but we'd need some input from people who aren't heading towards 50!

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Eamonn


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Interesting and I did notice this in pockets in Dublin.
Jarvis writing from the female point of view, especially around His N Hers was a unique thing at the time from a male pop singer, and possibly still would be? I dont think it was ever done too heavy-handed but as another straight white bloke, I'm more than open to correction on that.

Another type of demograph-spotting for me at the Pulp shows has been more disappointing - I've seen one black person in all the gigs I've been to this summer. One more than I saw at Wembley for Blur but given the passion and presence of Latin Americans and South East Asians, it did pause me to wonder why.

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Sleeve


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It's a very interesting point and one which I wrote about for my degree. There's a definite sense of knowing queerness to some aspects of Pulp's presentation. The use of makeup is often naively perceived as being a gay signifier but Pulp certainly had that escapist glamorousness and it marked them out as different from the assertively hetero britpop crowd. Jarvis has been an expressive, 'effete' (from a societally prescribed perspective) performer whose on stage movements were often reminiscent of voguing. He also welcomed an interview with Attitude Magazine in 1995 (accompanied by a striking photoshoot) you wouldn't catch any other acts of the time doing that. They were certainly aware of and welcoming to their gay audience- witness the 'Jarvis is queen' toilet graffiti in the Mis-Shapes video and the two young men discussing Jarvis' attractiveness/otherness in the No Sleep Til Sheffield documentary. Additionally, there's the friendship with Leigh Bowery's band Minty, founded at Eve Club back in the day. There's more if you look for it... 



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andy


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I dont think Pulp is a queer band. It's just a band with a frontman that wasn't (or isn't) the stereotype male in the 90s, an era where strong masculinity was back. 

Not everything is LGBTQ whatever + -, i'm not, far from it, yet songs like We Are the Boyz, I'm a Man, Dishes or Mis Shapes are among the foundations of the man i am today. I'm a man, not doubt about that. but not Queer. There's millions of way to be a man, a male, a dude, whatever people want to call it. 

You can be "different" and not be gay. No that there's anything wrong with that ;) 

Not everything is sexual when it comes to identity or personality.

So no, Pulp isn't a queer band. Jarvis is not queer. He's the ugly guy who's into ladies and found a way to express it in a different way.

He was the "Odd" one in an era where being odd was... odd. Now being odd is the new normal, right ? 

 

 



-- Edited by andy on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 12:44:43 PM

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Sleeve


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Not a queer band necessarily but there were certainly presentational reflections of queer culture which were there for those who recognised and appreciated them.

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legohairjordan


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andy wrote:

I dont think Pulp is a queer band. It's just a band with a frontman that wasn't (or isn't) the stereotype male in the 90s, an era where strong masculinity was back. 

Not everything is LGBTQ whatever + -, i'm not, far from it, yet songs like We Are the Boyz, I'm a Man, Dishes or Mis Shapes are among the foundations of the man i am today. I'm a man, not doubt about that. but not Queer. There's millions of way to be a man, a male, a dude, whatever people want to call it. 

You can be "different" and not be gay. No that there's anything wrong with that ;) 

Not everything is sexual when it comes to identity or personality.

So no, Pulp isn't a queer band. Jarvis is not queer. He's the ugly guy who's into ladies and found a way to express it in a different way.

He was the "Odd" one in an era where being odd was... odd. Now being odd is the new normal, right ? 

 

 



-- Edited by andy on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 12:44:43 PM

 

In agreeance with this.

I wouldn't say they are a 'queer' band, but they are a band for everyone or anyone regardless of demographic - especially those who feel like the outcasts and misfits that may feel a special resonance with the music.

And what you would hope from their gigs would be fan-filled safe spaces where everyone can just be themself and enjoy themselves.



-- Edited by legohairjordan on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 01:21:26 PM

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andy


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legohairjordan wrote:
andy wrote:

I dont think Pulp is a queer band. It's just a band with a frontman that wasn't (or isn't) the stereotype male in the 90s, an era where strong masculinity was back. 

Not everything is LGBTQ whatever + -, i'm not, far from it, yet songs like We Are the Boyz, I'm a Man, Dishes or Mis Shapes are among the foundations of the man i am today. I'm a man, not doubt about that. but not Queer. There's millions of way to be a man, a male, a dude, whatever people want to call it. 

You can be "different" and not be gay. No that there's anything wrong with that ;) 

Not everything is sexual when it comes to identity or personality.

So no, Pulp isn't a queer band. Jarvis is not queer. He's the ugly guy who's into ladies and found a way to express it in a different way.

He was the "Odd" one in an era where being odd was... odd. Now being odd is the new normal, right ? 

 

 



-- Edited by andy on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 12:44:43 PM

 

In agreeance with this.

I wouldn't say they are a 'queer' band, but they are a band for everyone or anyone regardless of demographic - especially those who feel like the outcasts and misfits that may feel a special resonance with the music.

And what you would hope from their gigs would be fan-filled safe spaces where everyone can just be themself and enjoy themselves.



-- Edited by legohairjordan on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 01:21:26 PM

 

Totally

Well I've been to a lot of "britpop" bands gigs and there was always a nice crowds: people being happy etc. Even at Oasis ones. girls, dudes, whatever. Never seen anyone being rejected for their looks or anything (and yes, there were "odd" or "different" people at Oasis gigs too, not just drunk football fans).

The 90s was never about rejection anyway. It was a happy time, there was something for everyone and the bands were the top of the pyramid. 

Society is more divided and violent now than it was 30 years ago. 



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saw119


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Been thinking about this thread a lot today and another couple of points. I would recommend anyone with an interest in this particular topic go back and listen to the 4th April 94 show at Glasgow Tramshed where Jarvis comes in for some particularly nasty and sustained homophobic abuse. The fact that this whole thing was broadcast on Radio 1 is mind boggling now. If you really are looking for a queer band in the 90's then Suede are the band you want. They were always, and still are, the band that attracted the largest number of LGBTQ+ fans that I can think of. Brett was always ambiguous and they regularly, and vocally, supported gay rights. I've been rewatching the 94 TOTP episodes on BBC4 and they dedicated a performance to Derek Jarman after his death from an AIDS related illness.

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weej


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andy wrote:

I dont think Pulp is a queer band. It's just a band with a frontman that wasn't (or isn't) the stereotype male in the 90s, an era where strong masculinity was back. 

Not everything is LGBTQ whatever + -, i'm not, far from it, yet songs like We Are the Boyz, I'm a Man, Dishes or Mis Shapes are among the foundations of the man i am today. I'm a man, not doubt about that. but not Queer. There's millions of way to be a man, a male, a dude, whatever people want to call it. 

You can be "different" and not be gay. No that there's anything wrong with that ;) 

Not everything is sexual when it comes to identity or personality.

So no, Pulp isn't a queer band. Jarvis is not queer. He's the ugly guy who's into ladies and found a way to express it in a different way.

He was the "Odd" one in an era where being odd was... odd. Now being odd is the new normal, right ?

-- Edited by andy on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 12:44:43 PM

 

Thanks Andy, I started this thread last night and didn't realise that maybe I hadn't fully explained what I meant, so let's expand it a bit.

Now yes, Pulp are all straight, in fact Jarvis's lyrics are perhaps some of the most heterosexual around, and there's a lot of sex in there of course. And you know the 90s were a very straight time for pop music, from the entire Britpop cohort who isn't 100% straight? Does David McAlmont count? I remember how much Brett Anderson was mocked for saying he was "a bisexual who'd never had a homosexual experience." Compare that to the pop scene in the 80s, or now in fact, what was going on there?

And of course high school was an extremely homophobic place then, if you were at all different you would be called gay, and that was basically the worst insult you could receive, it would inevitable lead to bullying or even violence - the idea of anyone being openly gay in my high school was completely unthinkable, and a lot of trying to fit in and not be the victim amounted to trying your best to act like a standard straight bloke. So the experience of being different, of being an outsider, it was very similar to the experience of actually being gay, and so when Mis-Shapes came out it worked as an anthem not just for the weird kids, but for the non-straight ones too. Accidentally, of course, but plenty of things like this are entirely accidental.

So yes, of course Pulp are a straight band, but IMO they can also be a queer one, it's a reading that also works, I think. I firmly believe that the most important part of any form of art is the experience of the listener (or viewer, reader, etc.) - if they can find something in there, whether it was intended by the artist or not, that's great.



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andy


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I dont know if you are gay or not but i feel like this touching you personally. I never witnessed any violence against gay people (or people who "looked" gay) during my childhood and teen years. Maybe I got lucky I dont know. And i dont come from any privileged background i gotta add: regular school, regular friends, regular life. But not in England... But did witness verbal violence about other things: race, shape, attitude... etc

I would add that many other insults were doing the round back then and probably nowadays too : paki, nigger, jew... or blonde, or fat, or girafe, or midget or insults about being from some other exotic country (i'm part ukrainian). I mean, maybe that touched you more, but some other insults were also as strong in the 90s. I guess it depends on someone's experience and people around them.

It's hard growing up, people are mostly awful to each other. My 4 year old doesn't want to wear shorts in this heat because he fears his "friends" will mock him. At 4 !

To me, the "Queer" band of the 90s was Suede, or Placebo. Not Pulp. Pulp was the one for the different ones, and no difference was more important than the other. Or "promoted" by the band. That's why I think Pulp isn't a queer band. It's a different band, formed by shy and odd looking people. And their statement is right here on their most popular album... Different Class.

The queerest britpop song to me is... Girls and Boys by Blur. Or Trash by Suede. Way more than Mis Shapes, which is way more... straight about what it is about. It's about being different in a non sexual way, which is an oddity for Jarvis, where most of his lyrics are sexual. It's about looking odd, behaving odd, thinking odd, but not necessarily gay or queer. It's about being judged for not checking all the boxes, in a global way.

But totally agree with your last sentence: Art is about the listener. So maybe Pulp has been adopted by the Queer community lately I dont know, but in the 90's, they were just the band with that weird guy singing about being a Common guy hitting on a rich spoilt girl. That was about it.



-- Edited by andy on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 02:40:45 PM



-- Edited by andy on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 02:41:14 PM

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Sleeve


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I remember Jarvis routinely being derided as 'gay' at my and my friends schools. Everything and everyone who was different was called 'gay'. He was subject to some half witted homophobia by the tabloids too- 'shirt lifter' being one laughable slur. The Tramshed incident is a good reflection of this and Jarvis' response of saying 'yes, I am gay' was a good retort to a clueless idiot.

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Ian


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andy wrote:

To me, the "Queer" band of the 90s was Suede, or Placebo. Not Pulp. Pulp was the one for the different ones, and no difference was more important than the other. Or "promoted" by the band. That's why I think Pulp isn't a queer band. It's a different band, formed by shy and odd looking people. And their statement is right here on their most popular album... Different Class.




I remember someone from school describing Suede as a "Britpop version of the Pet Shop Boys". You also had some of the lyrics ("We kiss in his room to a popular tune" etc) and the sleeve of the self-titled looks like two men kissing. I can sort of understand their point.

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weej


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andy wrote:

I dont know if you are gay or not but i feel like this touching you personally. I never witnessed any violence against gay people (or people who "looked" gay) during my childhood and teen years. Maybe I got lucky I dont know. And i dont come from any privileged background i gotta add: regular school, regular friends, regular life. But not in England... But did witness verbal violence about other things: race, shape, attitude... etc

I was trying my best not to talk about myself, but I really should I suppose. Am I gay? Short answer is "no." Longer answer is, romantically I have always been 100% hetero, sexually I have just never had a strong drive one way or the other, and if I were a teenager today, who knows? But right now I'm middle aged and happily married and the very idea of pursuing a relationship with anyone else, male or female, is just of no interest at all, so there is no use soul-seaching on the subject. But when I hear gay people talk about being alienated by straight culture, or trans people talking about being alienated by cis culture, I still think I get that.

So I hope there are some LGBTQ+ board members who can share their experience.



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weej


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Ian wrote:

I remember someone from school describing Suede as a "Britpop version of the Pet Shop Boys". You also had some of the lyrics ("We kiss in his room to a popular tune" etc) and the sleeve of the self-titled looks like two men kissing. I can sort of understand their point.

 Try this now and you would be in trouble for "queerbaiting"! I wonder if anyone has bothered to ask Brett about his sexuality in the last 25 years or so.



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Sleeve


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I think he enjoyed playing with the idea as a committed Bowie fan (who also enjoyed the notoriety of claiming bi-sexuality at one point) but having read his books, he seems like a very conventional straight person in reality.

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Eamonn


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Yeah, and a boring bastid too... God, his books were more overwrought than his lyrics (and I still love Suede).

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andy


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weej wrote:
andy wrote:

I dont know if you are gay or not but i feel like this touching you personally. I never witnessed any violence against gay people (or people who "looked" gay) during my childhood and teen years. Maybe I got lucky I dont know. And i dont come from any privileged background i gotta add: regular school, regular friends, regular life. But not in England... But did witness verbal violence about other things: race, shape, attitude... etc

I was trying my best not to talk about myself, but I really should I suppose. Am I gay? Short answer is "no." Longer answer is, romantically I have always been 100% hetero, sexually I have just never had a strong drive one way or the other, and if I were a teenager today, who knows? But right now I'm middle aged and happily married and the very idea of pursuing a relationship with anyone else, male or female, is just of no interest at all, so there is no use soul-seaching on the subject. But when I hear gay people talk about being alienated by straight culture, or trans people talking about being alienated by cis culture, I still think I get that.

So I hope there are some LGBTQ+ board members who can share their experience.

 

Ok I get what you are saying and understand the process :) 

As for any trauma, traumas are mainly done by other people. I certainly dont undermine gay or queer sufference because of society, but to me it doesnt have anyhting to do with Pulp smile

Gay, straight, tree, worm, bee, alien... We all belong to the universe. The day people accept that, maybe we can live in a better world. But will it happen ? Nah 



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As an LGBTQ+ person, every time I go to watch Pulp and Jarvis says Jesus it must be great to be straight I know hes talking about something else but to me, for a second, I am just able to release a bit of frustration at homophobic bullying Ive had. To be honest their style, the message to be yourself and not to be scared to be different, growing up in a small town where I got beaten up for for being different, a lot about the group chimed with me when I was younger. I know that is not just queer lived experiences, which is why they are popular for so many but it was - and is - so relatable.

And I will say of course I love Suede and I saw on the internet the other day someone say Damon Albarn invented bisexuality in 1995 so I think the queer bashing and tabloid culture is still unfortunately with us to some extent.

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Eamonn wrote:

Yeah, and a boring bastid too... God, his books were more overwrought than his lyrics (and I still love Suede).

 I don't know how often he used the word 'depressing' in the first one but it was too many!



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I think Pulp are an attractive proposition for today's generation of young, queer, leftie, student-age or teen-age, social media-using music listeners - they've got that killer combination of fantastic, enduring music replete with themes that matter to them (sex, class, the reality of life, love) and the perfect outside packaging, with an intriguing, charismatic and attractive frontman, characterful and well-dressed members, and an aesthetic that swings between perfect retro-90s kitsch (His 'N' Hers, Different Class) and retro-50s (This Is Hardcore).

Common People will always have a pull for young people, especially with the lyrics. It's great that Pulp's biggest hit was such a signifier of their ethos. It's a real flagship song with so much exposure and airplay.

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andy


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Pulp probably also attract a younger generation because basically, outside of Rap and shit pop music, there is literally nothing else.

So people who want different things dig in the past. Nothing is set in stone, Pulp could become a band for Queer. but that sounds a bit weird, considering Jarvis basically spends his time making love to girls in his mind in 99% of his songs :D

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Zurdta


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I always felt Jarvis's lyrics echoed my life: A bullied child. A young single mother, demonised by the Government & press of the day. A working class person with aspirations and dreams.

I was someone who never fit in anywhere at any time. Until Britpop hit me in 1994. Then there seemed to be many bands that understood - after all they were around my own age so there was a lot of shared history, and, very importantly, a shared pop culture. Which is why I was dismayed (to say the least) when Britpop turned into Laddism and all the glamour, intelligence and optimism drained out of it.

Looking at Pulp from a distance of 30 years I can see how many people, feeling marginalised in some way, would be drawn into the music and the lyrics. There is an inclusivity to the attitude of Pulp - the make up, the clothing, the posturing as well as the lyrics.

Of course the band is more than the music and reading the thoughts and opinions of all the band members over many (many, many) years it is obvious that they are all very much open to the LGBTQ+ community and all for being inclusive to those marginalised groups (the odd clumsy remark here and there aside!)

I see no reason why Misfits could not apply to any LGBTQ+ person, and not just us freaks in the jumble sale clothing. Pretty sure it all overlaps - we are all more than one thing, right? And no one is going to gatekeep here, are they? What you find personally relatable, what connections you make that make you enjoy the music more is a very good thing.

TL;DR: I think we all project what we want onto a band and there are many ideas and interpretations of the music that are fun to discuss. Without bigotry.

 



-- Edited by Zurdta on Monday 24th of July 2023 01:30:32 PM

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Violin Thing


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I think all of that is really well said!

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Violin Thing


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Zurdta wrote:

 

I see no reason why Misfits could not apply to any LGBTQ+ person, and not just us freaks in the jumble sale clothing. Pretty sure it all overlaps - we are all more than one thing, right? And no one is going to gatekeep here, are they? What you find personally relatable, what connections you make that make you enjoy the music more is a very good thing.

TL;DR: I think we all project what we want onto a band and there are many ideas and interpretations of the music that are fun to discuss. Without bigotry.

 



-- Edited by Zurdta on Monday 24th of July 2023 01:30:32 PM

Not going to lie, when I saw this thread title yesterday I just felt a bit nervous clicking on it. But what you've said here perfecrtly sums up the way I feel. 



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