Don't have much time because I've got to leave for work in a minute but wanted to post on this. The short answer is, I don't really know but surely a band like Pulp, who embrace outsiderdom so wholly must surely act as a magnet for marginalised groups in society. I was attracted to them in the early 90's because they articulated a sense of being not 'normal'. I don't remember there being a highly visible LGBTQ+ movement in indie music in the mid 90's but I'm sure a lot of that demographic were there at the time. If younger generations find solace and kindred spirits in Pulp then that's fantastic but we'd need some input from people who aren't heading towards 50!

It's a very interesting point and one which I wrote about for my degree. There's a definite sense of knowing queerness to some aspects of Pulp's presentation. The use of makeup is often naively perceived as being a gay signifier but Pulp certainly had that escapist glamorousness and it marked them out as different from the assertively hetero britpop crowd. Jarvis has been an expressive, 'effete' (from a societally prescribed perspective) performer whose on stage movements were often reminiscent of voguing. He also welcomed an interview with Attitude Magazine in 1995 (accompanied by a striking photoshoot) you wouldn't catch any other acts of the time doing that. They were certainly aware of and welcoming to their gay audience- witness the 'Jarvis is queen' toilet graffiti in the Mis-Shapes video and the two young men discussing Jarvis' attractiveness/otherness in the No Sleep Til Sheffield documentary. Additionally, there's the friendship with Leigh Bowery's band Minty, founded at Eve Club back in the day. There's more if you look for it... 

Not a queer band necessarily but there were certainly presentational reflections of queer culture which were there for those who recognised and appreciated them.

legohairjordan wrote:

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andy wrote:

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I dont think Pulp is a queer band. It's just a band with a frontman that wasn't (or isn't) the stereotype male in the 90s, an era where strong masculinity was back. 

Not everything is LGBTQ whatever + -, i'm not, far from it, yet songs like We Are the Boyz, I'm a Man, Dishes or Mis Shapes are among the foundations of the man i am today. I'm a man, not doubt about that. but not Queer. There's millions of way to be a man, a male, a dude, whatever people want to call it. 

You can be "different" and not be gay. No that there's anything wrong with that ;) 

Not everything is sexual when it comes to identity or personality.

So no, Pulp isn't a queer band. Jarvis is not queer. He's the ugly guy who's into ladies and found a way to express it in a different way.

He was the "Odd" one in an era where being odd was... odd. Now being odd is the new normal, right ? 

 

 

-- Edited by andy on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 12:44:43 PM

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In agreeance with this.

I wouldn't say they are a 'queer' band, but they are a band for everyone or anyone regardless of demographic - especially those who feel like the outcasts and misfits that may feel a special resonance with the music.

And what you would hope from their gigs would be fan-filled safe spaces where everyone can just be themself and enjoy themselves.

-- Edited by legohairjordan on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 01:21:26 PM

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Totally

Well I've been to a lot of "britpop" bands gigs and there was always a nice crowds: people being happy etc. Even at Oasis ones. girls, dudes, whatever. Never seen anyone being rejected for their looks or anything (and yes, there were "odd" or "different" people at Oasis gigs too, not just drunk football fans).

The 90s was never about rejection anyway. It was a happy time, there was something for everyone and the bands were the top of the pyramid. 

Society is more divided and violent now than it was 30 years ago. 

andy wrote:

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I dont think Pulp is a queer band. It's just a band with a frontman that wasn't (or isn't) the stereotype male in the 90s, an era where strong masculinity was back. 

Not everything is LGBTQ whatever + -, i'm not, far from it, yet songs like We Are the Boyz, I'm a Man, Dishes or Mis Shapes are among the foundations of the man i am today. I'm a man, not doubt about that. but not Queer. There's millions of way to be a man, a male, a dude, whatever people want to call it. 

You can be "different" and not be gay. No that there's anything wrong with that ;) 

Not everything is sexual when it comes to identity or personality.

So no, Pulp isn't a queer band. Jarvis is not queer. He's the ugly guy who's into ladies and found a way to express it in a different way.

He was the "Odd" one in an era where being odd was... odd. Now being odd is the new normal, right ?

-- Edited by andy on Sunday 23rd of July 2023 12:44:43 PM

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Thanks Andy, I started this thread last night and didn't realise that maybe I hadn't fully explained what I meant, so let's expand it a bit.

Now yes, Pulp are all straight, in fact Jarvis's lyrics are perhaps some of the most heterosexual around, and there's a lot of sex in there of course. And you know the 90s were a very straight time for pop music, from the entire Britpop cohort who isn't 100% straight? Does David McAlmont count? I remember how much Brett Anderson was mocked for saying he was "a bisexual who'd never had a homosexual experience." Compare that to the pop scene in the 80s, or now in fact, what was going on there?

And of course high school was an extremely homophobic place then, if you were at all different you would be called gay, and that was basically the worst insult you could receive, it would inevitable lead to bullying or even violence - the idea of anyone being openly gay in my high school was completely unthinkable, and a lot of trying to fit in and not be the victim amounted to trying your best to act like a standard straight bloke. So the experience of being different, of being an outsider, it was very similar to the experience of actually being gay, and so when Mis-Shapes came out it worked as an anthem not just for the weird kids, but for the non-straight ones too. Accidentally, of course, but plenty of things like this are entirely accidental.

So yes, of course Pulp are a straight band, but IMO they can also be a queer one, it's a reading that also works, I think. I firmly believe that the most important part of any form of art is the experience of the listener (or viewer, reader, etc.) - if they can find something in there, whether it was intended by the artist or not, that's great.

I remember Jarvis routinely being derided as 'gay' at my and my friends schools. Everything and everyone who was different was called 'gay'. He was subject to some half witted homophobia by the tabloids too- 'shirt lifter' being one laughable slur. The Tramshed incident is a good reflection of this and Jarvis' response of saying 'yes, I am gay' was a good retort to a clueless idiot.

andy wrote:

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I dont know if you are gay or not but i feel like this touching you personally. I never witnessed any violence against gay people (or people who "looked" gay) during my childhood and teen years. Maybe I got lucky I dont know. And i dont come from any privileged background i gotta add: regular school, regular friends, regular life. But not in England... But did witness verbal violence about other things: race, shape, attitude... etc

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I was trying my best not to talk about myself, but I really should I suppose. Am I gay? Short answer is "no." Longer answer is, romantically I have always been 100% hetero, sexually I have just never had a strong drive one way or the other, and if I were a teenager today, who knows? But right now I'm middle aged and happily married and the very idea of pursuing a relationship with anyone else, male or female, is just of no interest at all, so there is no use soul-seaching on the subject. But when I hear gay people talk about being alienated by straight culture, or trans people talking about being alienated by cis culture, I still think I get that.

So I hope there are some LGBTQ+ board members who can share their experience.

I think he enjoyed playing with the idea as a committed Bowie fan (who also enjoyed the notoriety of claiming bi-sexuality at one point) but having read his books, he seems like a very conventional straight person in reality.

weej wrote:

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andy wrote:

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I dont know if you are gay or not but i feel like this touching you personally. I never witnessed any violence against gay people (or people who "looked" gay) during my childhood and teen years. Maybe I got lucky I dont know. And i dont come from any privileged background i gotta add: regular school, regular friends, regular life. But not in England... But did witness verbal violence about other things: race, shape, attitude... etc

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I was trying my best not to talk about myself, but I really should I suppose. Am I gay? Short answer is "no." Longer answer is, romantically I have always been 100% hetero, sexually I have just never had a strong drive one way or the other, and if I were a teenager today, who knows? But right now I'm middle aged and happily married and the very idea of pursuing a relationship with anyone else, male or female, is just of no interest at all, so there is no use soul-seaching on the subject. But when I hear gay people talk about being alienated by straight culture, or trans people talking about being alienated by cis culture, I still think I get that.

So I hope there are some LGBTQ+ board members who can share their experience.

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Ok I get what you are saying and understand the process :) 

As for any trauma, traumas are mainly done by other people. I certainly dont undermine gay or queer sufference because of society, but to me it doesnt have anyhting to do with Pulp 

Gay, straight, tree, worm, bee, alien... We all belong to the universe. The day people accept that, maybe we can live in a better world. But will it happen ? Nah 

Eamonn wrote:

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Yeah, and a boring bastid too... God, his books were more overwrought than his lyrics (and I still love Suede).

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 I don't know how often he used the word 'depressing' in the first one but it was too many!

Pulp probably also attract a younger generation because basically, outside of Rap and shit pop music, there is literally nothing else.

So people who want different things dig in the past. Nothing is set in stone, Pulp could become a band for Queer. but that sounds a bit weird, considering Jarvis basically spends his time making love to girls in his mind in 99% of his songs :D

I think all of that is really well said!

Anna wrote:

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There are no tq+. There are only gays, lesbians and bisexuals. And stop reclaiming the word queer.

It is fashionable for modern straight girls to idealize and fetishize homosexuality. And these straight girls, who consider themselves trans gay men and have no relation to real homosexuals, now make up a large part of the so-called LGBTQ+ movement. It's such a shame.

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[LOUD WRONG BUZZER NOISE]

Zurdta wrote:

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I always felt Jarvis's lyrics echoed my life: A bullied child. A young single mother, demonised by the Government & press of the day. A working class person with aspirations and dreams.

I was someone who never fit in anywhere at any time. Until Britpop hit me in 1994. Then there seemed to be many bands that understood - after all they were around my own age so there was a lot of shared history, and, very importantly, a shared pop culture. Which is why I was dismayed (to say the least) when Britpop turned into Laddism and all the glamour, intelligence and optimism drained out of it.

Looking at Pulp from a distance of 30 years I can see how many people, feeling marginalised in some way, would be drawn into the music and the lyrics. There is an inclusivity to the attitude of Pulp - the make up, the clothing, the posturing as well as the lyrics.

Of course the band is more than the music and reading the thoughts and opinions of all the band members over many (many, many) years it is obvious that they are all very much open to the LGBTQ+ community and all for being inclusive to those marginalised groups (the odd clumsy remark here and there aside!)

I see no reason why Misfits could not apply to any LGBTQ+ person, and not just us freaks in the jumble sale clothing. Pretty sure it all overlaps - we are all more than one thing, right? And no one is going to gatekeep here, are they? What you find personally relatable, what connections you make that make you enjoy the music more is a very good thing.

TL;DR: I think we all project what we want onto a band and there are many ideas and interpretations of the music that are fun to discuss. Without bigotry.

 

-- Edited by Zurdta on Monday 24th of July 2023 01:30:32 PM

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This is such an absolutely lovely write-up! Perfectly articulated. 

Thanks Violin Thing and Zurdta for excellent posts. The "Jesus it must be great to be straight" line has always stood out to me, what ever did he mean by this? I think back to Jonathan Richman's "I'm Straight" where the word very much doesn't mean "not gay" and wonder how it has shifted in usage over the years. Don't think there are many other lyrics with that kind of ambiguity, none that come to mind anyway, but Pulp certainly had some photoshoots which are at the very least sexually ambiguous.

Not so much thanks Anna, but it seems to have already been addressed, so let's move on.

Most important thing to stress here, I think: alternative interpretations to a band don't in any way invalidate your own feelings or interpretation, I wouldn't tell anyone the way they relate to the music is wrong. But having a variety of ways of listening for different fans is just really interesting to me, and I want to hear more.

weej wrote:

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Thanks Violin Thing and Zurdta for excellent posts. The "Jesus it must be great to be straight" line has always stood out to me, what ever did he mean by this? I think back to Jonathan Richman's "I'm Straight" where the word very much doesn't mean "not gay" and wonder how it has shifted in usage over the years. Don't think there are many other lyrics with that kind of ambiguity, none that come to mind anyway, but Pulp certainly had some photoshoots which are at the very least sexually ambiguous.

Not so much thanks Anna, but it seems to have already been addressed, so let's move on.

Most important thing to stress here, I think: alternative interpretations to a band don't in any way invalidate your own feelings or interpretation, I wouldn't tell anyone the way they relate to the music is wrong. But having a variety of ways of listening for different fans is just really interesting to me, and I want to hear more.

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So on one hand, yeah. I'm a nerdy weirdo who used to be called "gay" in school, I read books and was gangly and crap at sport and was shit with girls, convinced it was 'true love' every time one spoke to me for 5 minutes. I liked different music to my peers, and I was a bit leftie and came home to my parents who were probably complaining about David Cameron or Nick Clegg when I got through the door.

But also, on a certain level, I'm probably not the best person to be a Pulp fan. I'm very middle-middle-class - my parents are both university academics - I went to a private school (!), one of those liberal 'independent' types that posit themselves as being intellectual rather than old money, and in reality are Lib Dem factories. I'm now doing a humanities degree at a uni where a massive % of people have a large amount of privilege (and are very in-your-face with it, they wear f***ing signet rings!) - I'm looking for a minimum-wage job but I don't need one to survive. I feel a need to be upfront about that, you can't and shouldn't really hide it.

I also have a very left-wing point of view, and never particularly hidden it either (I remember being told by some kid in 2019 that "you only vote Labour cos you're poor and you've probably got a small garden"). I think we should abolish private schools (and little shits like that kid), I think we should redistribute wealth in this country, I think if I said what I wanted to say about the ruling and political classes I'd probably get both banned and also reported to Prevent. Not that I'm a huge fan of the Labour party right now either. Austerity is a murder machine.

Pulp's music is my favourite of anyone's but I'd never want to declare an ownership of it, I'm conscious on some level that it is Not For You, that I will Never Understand How It Feels. My job is knowing that and reflecting on it without being a self-conceited congratulatory arsewipe. But Jarvis also writes so well about the self-absorption of my social class, of the useless paraphernalia that clutters up His 'N' Hers, the matching towels, pink quilted eiderdowns and everything. There's a quote from a Jarvis interview circa 1999 - "Being middle class is having two Sunday newspapers in your house and a Dyson vacuum cleaner. It is a certain materialistic way of furnishing your own coffin as comfortably as possible, a terrible blandness. Nobody should aspire to that." I love the way Jarvis punctures the middle class while making it quite clear that they are neither his focus nor his audience - the posh girl in Common People gets moved out of the picture, he smiles and holds her hand and humours her and from then on in, he refuses to centre her, she's off to the side, just out of focus beyond the camera - the way the working class are treated by the middle class, who will just look past them on the street. Jarvis rips apart the middle class without ever giving them the spotlight. It's brilliant.

The working class reality of Pulp's music is, really, what I think got them patronised and packaged as a kitsch novelty by the press. Like, listen to his accent! Never mind Russell's! And they wear such funny clothes! We're supposed to believe that Blur were the ones who 'went arty' (by imitating Pavement guitar scronk) while Pulp disappeared. Pulp were arty from the beginning! It's not even This Is Hardcore - 'I Spy' already says more than any of those mid-90s Britpop records, musically and lyrically. And it is the sound of decades of class resentment being harnessed into a finessed plan of revenge. And then people like me come and write about it and say what's it about.

I guess what I'm trying to say with all of this is that who you are as a person, how you listen to music, it can be fluid. I've absolutely fallen in love with Pulp - I see no reason why the LGBTQIA+ community (which I'm also part of) couldn't see something to love, too. Because - at the end of the day - it's not necessarily about whether you detect little undertones, or certain lines in songs - it's the entirety of what a band is and says, it's how the music sounds, how the singer sounds and the things he says. And you're allowed to love those things, and with Pulp being a batch of misfit socialists, that's the sort of people you are going to attract. And it's probably a demographic with its fair share of queer folk, too.

weej wrote:

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Thanks Violin Thing and Zurdta for excellent posts. The "Jesus it must be great to be straight" line has always stood out to me, what ever did he mean by this? I think back to Jonathan Richman's "I'm Straight" where the word very much doesn't mean "not gay" and wonder how it has shifted in usage over the years. Don't think there are many other lyrics with that kind of ambiguity, none that come to mind anyway, but Pulp certainly had some photoshoots which are at the very least sexually ambiguous.

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 I always took it to mean 'conventional', and therefore 'boring and dull'... but when you listen to the song, I can't quite buy it, because the word has shifted so much. I think it could be a deliberately ambiguous choice, but also a lot of queer people are probably going to equate being straight with conventionality and there's an implicit stance on the staid typical straight relationship in that song (because her new squeeze is so boring and probably doesn't respect her much as a woman), so even with the original meaning of the lyric, it's something that's accessible to LGBTQIA+.

It's kind of indicative of Pulp's fringe-ness, isn't it? There's something powerful about the idea that it's the outcasts and misfits who are better at this stuff, that the mainstream idea of sex - predicated on being a muscley hunk of the kind that terrorised young Jarvis - is hopeless, and that Jarvis has power in his ability to approach this stuff right. It's quite subversive.

Probably my favourite song by Pulp when you boil everything down.

-- Edited by lipglossed on Monday 24th of July 2023 03:55:20 PM

Well, that escalated quickly ! I wont be so harsh on Anna, as i'm anti communities, any form of... I think they are the cancer of society. but i've always been an outcast, so what do i know !

thanx for the "straight" line explanation, very interesting !

As for the Pulp "pose" in some photos or videos being ambiguous, it lies within the british males population right ?

Even Oasis fans and football hooligans talk about hair, kiss each other on lips and hug. It always surprised me as a foreigner. It's like they don't know where they stand sexually. anyone got an explanation for that ?

I think it depends on individuals' security in their masculinity.

lipglossed wrote:

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I think it depends on individuals' security in their masculinity.

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Well for the British guys i've known it was more a fear of opposite sex and not knowing how to behave around them. Dont know about italians or spanish. 

Schools are boys and girls in the UK ? 

andy wrote:

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Even Oasis fans and football hooligans talk about hair, kiss each other on lips and hug. It always surprised me as a foreigner. It's like they don't know where they stand sexually. anyone got an explanation for that ?

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Afraid this is very much not my experience of British masculinity, especially not in the 90s!

weej wrote:

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andy wrote:

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Even Oasis fans and football hooligans talk about hair, kiss each other on lips and hug. It always surprised me as a foreigner. It's like they don't know where they stand sexually. anyone got an explanation for that ?

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Afraid this is very much not my experience of British masculinity, especially not in the 90s!

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 Depends on the town maybe ? Ive seen that a lot from oasis fans from Manchester in the early 00s

 

especially hair and hugs, kiss when drunk only

Yeah, Republic/South. Neil is Derry, North, isn't he?

This is very instructive re: exact geography

genius.com/The-divine-comedy-sunrise-lyrics

Afraid to say I disagree about both of those!

I think "I've kissed your mother twice, and now I'm working on your dad" is as it reads. I think "twice" gives the game away. He's kissed your mother *twice*, so now he's going to do it to your dad, too. The protagonist might be bisexual, or he might be secure enough in his own masculinity that it doesn't matter.

The Razzmatazz one I've always thought was a deliberately nonsensical, playground insult. Suits the bitter vibe of the song. It's a slightly powerless pisstake from a bitter dumpee.

Yeah the line about the dad is clearly him trying to get on his good side, i think it's pretty obvious you need to separate the first part of the sentence and the second part. And as said before, kissed the mother. but not on the lips, why would he say that to his girlfriend ? Pretty weird :D 

 

Jarvis never really made ambiguous lyrics I think. Bar Razzmatazz, which is the weirdest one, I dont know if he's talking about incest and stuff. But yeah, "low" humans are mentionned in this song  Maybe he means the brother is sleeping (like just sleeping, resting) like a baby in his parents' bed despite being i dont know 20 or soemthing. Ive seen 8 years old still breastfed so nothing surprises me... Or maybe they are half bros and sis with different mums. 

 

the only line i didnt get was the "straight" one from Do You Remember... but it's been explained now. 30 years later ! Wow. It's always made me think because it didn't make sense at all in the song. 

 

Yes Neil Hannon is from Northern Ireland as you mentionned the song Sunrise is all about that. Probably the only one in the catalog if i remember correctly. 

andy wrote:

 

 

Jarvis never really made ambiguous lyrics I think

 

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"Cocker's short for sucker. I suck cock off. Yeah, I suck cock off... mumble mumble mumble"

 

I mean, I guess that's technically not ambiguous, but I'm pretty sure he wasn't being literal either.

Isn't it "A sucker of...", not "I suck cock off"?

Not that Jarvis can't suck cock if he wants to or anything. I just didn't think the song was quite so literal.

He's sending himself up in The Professional in spectacular fashion, the public version at least. And he always loves a pun.
And yeah, it's "A sucker of..."

He's clever and the nudge-nudge element underplays this but as an example of self-loathing there can't be many better by a famous popstar. He's at the peak of his lyrical powers on this track and the band more than match it with their musical backing. A total triumph. What a side-two opener on the album, it could have been.

For the first time in years, I listened to a live version of its sister-piece, Ladies Man last night - the only time he ever performed it live. And it was with Air, not Pulp!

There you go:
feelingcalledlive.co.uk/2019/06/25/2010-06-04-jarvis-cocker-and-air-live-at-cite-de-la-musique-paris-france/

Might be a lil biased coming from a queer person, but yes, theres something definitely queer about Pulp.
Perhaps its the ragtag thrift shop aesthetic that comes with their look, or Jarvis rather saucy lyrics, or maybe its the relatability that a group of Sheffield art nerds found each other and stuck together all those years. Theres always been a queer aspect in being an outsider, and thats exactly what Pulps lyrics sometimes feel like to me.

I'm gay and trans. I hadn't posted here before, but since you were looking for what LGBTQ+ people thought of the question, I figured I'd chime in.

Pulp is my absolute favorite band, and I've been able to tie many of their lyrics to my own experiences around being queer, despite that surely not being what the songs were actually about at all. That's the beauty of music I think, that we can all hear songs that were personal to the people who wrote them and twist them in a way that's relatable to our own lives. I think their music is easy for queer people to relate to, just like others who don't fit in or are different in some way. A large part of what drew me to Pulp was that they are so... okay with being weird and different, and that made me feel like it was okay for me to be too.

Eamonn wrote:

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Lovely to read that.

Also, I'm observing that Russell is the avatar of quite a few of our LGBTQ+ members on here. Does/did he capture the "weird and different" best in the group?

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He was weird and different in his own way. Kind of like Jarvis is, in his own. I'm not the biggest Russell fan to be honest. Songs from his era have a weird vibe around them. I Love those records dont get me wrong and there was a time in my life when they rung true, but i always felt that if i had to spend 5 mins around him i'd feel like i'm both in antartica and hell

Maybe that was just a pose. Or the act they wanted to be at the time. 

Jarvis has a more "funny" weirdness about him. Like Goofy. 

Eamonn wrote:

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Lovely to read that.

Also, I'm observing that Russell is the avatar of quite a few of our LGBTQ+ members on here. Does/did he capture the "weird and different" best in the group?

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Personally it's a little more of a gender envy kind of thing, but I also love that he is just so unabashedly himself. 

Oh, I hope I dream about that tonight  

 

Me and Russ try and push Mick Hucknall off Bempton Cliff but then I wake-up just in time before I become a murderer.

lipglossed wrote:

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Eamonn wrote:

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Another type of demograph-spotting for me at the Pulp shows has been more disappointing - I've seen one black person in all the gigs I've been to this summer. One more than I saw at Wembley for Blur but given the passion and presence of Latin Americans and South East Asians, it did pause me to wonder why.

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 I haven't really been thinking about it, but come to think of it you're right. Not the most racially diverse crowd, although Bridlington is one of the least ethnically diverse places in the UK (East Yorkshire is statistically very, very white). I did actually queue next to a British East Asian student there though. We both got pulled out of the queue to do a bag-search - well, he was and I followed - we entered and I don't recall seeing him after that. Hope he got a good view, and had a nice time - he said he'd been listening to Pulp for years and years. (Like I said, lots of us young'uns. Or younger-uns...)

It's certainly worth remarking and reflecting on, though. Both gigs I've been to were very racially homogenous.

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The audience for The Specials and UB40 when I saw them were predominantly white, well near exclusively.  Similar for Bloc Party. I have some Asian friends who have come to a few gigs with me.  Most interesting was a friend who came with me to see From The Jam who was a bit concerned about a right wing element in the crowd before the gig.  Having explained the background of Down In The Tube Station and that generally speaking Jam fans are a pretty tolerant if over exhuberant bunch he ended up having a great time.