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Post Info TOPIC: La Monte Young charity concert 1997


The Only Way is Down

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Don't think so, unfortunately.

Reading back on Mark's review of the night there are a lot of questions www.pulpwiki.net/Pulp/Live311097LaMonteYoungBenefit
Did the money raised on the night make a difference to La Monte Young's debt problems? Did his partner Marian get better? Is she still alive? And Mark says he had five hours of interview with Young - did he finish that project?

It's sad that so little exists of Mark discussing stuff like this or even relatively little about his thoughts on Pulp (post-becoming a member). He really doesn't feel comfortable in any sort of spotlight, does he?



-- Edited by Eamonn on Sunday 28th of July 2013 10:37:19 PM

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Hardcore

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It occurred to me I've never heard the La Monte Young charity concert from 1997, which is kind of remarkable considering it was the first performance of TIH and Seductive Barry, plus a still young Help the Aged. 

I understand there was a professional recording which Mark intended for commercial release. Has it ever floated around? It must have?



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I'm sure I've got a copy of two of the three songs (can't remember which ones) but the quality is terrible.

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The Only Way is Down

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I made that recording - on a dictaphone under a neighbouring seat on the back row of the hall. Sadly it was only a 7 minute tape (would have been 15 but I forgot to put it in long play mode) so there's Seductive Barry and most of Hardcore, but no Help the Aged. I still have the minicassette somewhere but no means of playing it.

The official recording has never surfaced. It was filmed too!

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The Only Way is Down

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Did you have a good night then?

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Sturdy, I've got the equipment to easily transfer a minicassette into a digital format if you were interested? I mean, for 7 minutes it might not be worth it. But I'd certainly be interested in hearing it.

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Eamonn wrote:

Did you have a good night then?


I did... it was about 2 weeks into my first term at university and I put a cheeky request on the Lipgloss mailing list for anyone who had a spare ticket and a floor in London I could sleep on. A nice young lad called Jamil got in touch, I got the train down from Coventry, met him off the tube and we headed straight to the venue. We'd missed the first bit but there was a load of really interesting stuff, a pretty extraordinary line-up really - Nick Cave doing a piano set with Warren Ellis on violin, Tony Wilson compering, Spiritualized playing with the English Chamber Orchestra, footage of La Monte himself, a bizarre recorded message from Yoko Ono ("now we know how the rest of the Beatles felt", as Wilson quipped immediately afterwards) and of course Pulp.

We were right at the back but there was still a decent view - they were all bunched together in a corner at the front of the stage, most of the space being taken up by the ECO. I knew it was going to be something different from Different Class (they'd dropped enough hints by this point) , but it was still a little surprising - Seductive Barry started with this long sustained drone from the orchestra that seemed to go on forever, can't remember whether Jarvis was onstage from the start or made a delayed appearance as the drone gradually transmogrified into the song we all know. Can't remember whether it was before or after the press coverage for Help the Aged, but it must've been one of the first sightings of Jarvis' 1997 look - those big glasses, the longer hair, brown clothes etc. Just a completely different sort of presence to before - no big showbiz lighting or stage set like you'd have expected from the Arena tour. I think he must have been singing behind a mic stand to start with too because I seem to remember him slowly destroying it at some point during the performance. There wasn't much dancing or gesticulating (although as things went on it seemed to get to the point where he couldn't help himself), and not much chat until the start of Help the Aged - something along the lines of "It's my dad's birthday today so this is for him, not that he deserves it".

I came away with high hopes for the album - the two new songs seemed like a decisive turn away from the obvious, poppy aspects of Different Class into more mysterious, murky, menacing territory, almost like they'd rediscovered the soul-searching experimentalism of Freaks. Hardcore, when it finally came out (was it really only six months later?) wasn't quite the album I'd been anticipating...



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The Only Way is Down

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calumlynn wrote:

Sturdy, I've got the equipment to easily transfer a minicassette into a digital format if you were interested? I mean, for 7 minutes it might not be worth it. But I'd certainly be interested in hearing it.


 Ah, now you've called my bluff! Give me chance to find it (think it's in the garage) and I'll drop you a line...



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The Only Way is Down

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What would be your TIH tracklist Mr Sturdy, taking into account all the b-sides and extra tracks on the deluxe edition there was to choose from?

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The Only Way is Down

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Chuck them all out and start again!

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The Only Way is Down

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Pah! Sticking to your views from Truth and Beauty then when you were a callow youth. I thought growing-up (not old - face it etc.) and the extra songs released later would have made you re-evaluate your opinion.

There was more than enough recorded in 1997 by Pulp to make TIH their masterpiece in my opinion. Which is saying something given that '92-'94 was the period which birthed the most unique and exciting sound of their career.
They just got the choice of songs wrong on Hardcore. Owen Hatherley makes really good arguments in his book for the inclusion/exclusion of certain songs...about half the album if I remember right!

But yeah, back on topic, it would be interesting to hear the songs from that night. Seductive Barry and This Is Hardcore may not have been fully finished for the album at the time and it was their maiden live performance.

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The Only Way is Down

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Ha, not an entirely serious reply if I'm honest. But really, I don't think taking certain songs off Hardcore or putting other ones on would have made a lot of difference really. OK Dirty World's good, but most of the other "lost classics" have the same problems as the songs on the album - some great moments but no a tendency to seem quite unfocused and confused, songs that are almost great but seem to resort to lazy cliches just so they can be described as finished, often relatively uninspired lyrics, expensive but uninteresting arrangements and production... two of my least favourite songs on that album (Dishes and Sylvia) have my favourite bits in them (solo and verses, respectively). Talk about a curate's egg!

There are no big differences between the Barbican live versions of Barry and Hardcore and the album versions. I guess the album was largely done at that point. They're good though!

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Hardcore

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Sturdy wrote:

Ha, not an entirely serious reply if I'm honest. But really, I don't think taking certain songs off Hardcore or putting other ones on would have made a lot of difference really. OK Dirty World's good, but most of the other "lost classics" have the same problems as the songs on the album - some great moments but no a tendency to seem quite unfocused and confused, songs that are almost great but seem to resort to lazy cliches just so they can be described as finished, often relatively uninspired lyrics, expensive but uninteresting arrangements and production... two of my least favourite songs on that album (Dishes and Sylvia) have my favourite bits in them (solo and verses, respectively). Talk about a curate's egg!

There are no big differences between the Barbican live versions of Barry and Hardcore and the album versions. I guess the album was largely done at that point. They're good though!


 

Thanks for the insights Sturdy. I was curious whether Seductive Barry was fully-fleshed out (ahem) at that point. For some reason I thought it was one of the last songs on the album to get finished. Could swear I read Jarvis saying somewhere that he struggled with the track for ages, until they brought Neneh Cherry into the studio at some late hour.

As for the album, speaking as a former Hardcore anorak, I don't think it has aged very well. I can't remember the last time I put it on, and when I do I tend to skip around. 

My taste is not to be trusted though. I think Dirty World is awful, and I think Modern Marriage, My Erection and Ladies' Man are the best tracks from the epoch. And I'm not just trying to be contrary.

 

 



-- Edited by Fuss Free on Thursday 1st of August 2013 08:09:27 PM

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That must be the recording I have then. I've a vague recollection of you writing something like "Great show, terrible quality" on the CD or tape. If I can find it, I will upload it.

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Modern Marriage?

 

Modern Marriage



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The Only Way is Down

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I like Modern Marriage, although I don't think it would have fit in on Hardcore - the tone of it's too light and well, too human I guess. Also the "I dooooooo" section at the end's an example of what I was saying about resorting to cliches to finish the song off - there's a sense of "argh, we've got a verse and chorus, what can we stick on the end to make it a complete song, oh sod it this'll do". Bit harsh maybe, it's only a demo.

Ladies' Man's definitely got something about it - it's atmospheric and musically enjoyable and works on its own terms. My Erection perhaps less so!

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The Only Way is Down

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I think the album was in the can by the time Help The Aged came out in late '97 and (allowing for the standard three months or so of PR and manufacturing/distribution of the album) was held back for the "indie album release window of opportunity" - spring and autumn apparently (We Love Life suffered a similar but longer gestation and delay).

As for the music, agreed that there is a certain something missing from some of the songs (The Day After The Revolution, Glory Days...a lot of side two in fact). High production levels work to the detriment of I'm A Man (terribly stodgy...would love to hear how the demo sounds) and Sylvia (Pulp and bombast sit a little uneasily together). As for the lyrics, yeah, maybe there is a presence of clichés hitherto not in Pulp's lexicon. In Jarvis' defence, I guess when you're known for your wit, a period of being feted by all and sundry followed by a long comedown must surely influence how you write. Possibly expressed in a more insular and honest/plain manner (Dishes/TV Movie). Only fair to mention how his mind was still sharp enough to write the words for likes of The Professional and Cocaine Socialism.

Personally, I find it the hardest album to refine as it has undeniable weak spots but still works quite well as it is - a knowingly flawed document of a pop band in a transition to wanting to be taken more serious. But there's just too many holes in it, particularly the second half and I subscribe more to the idea of ''Pick the best songs'' rather than ''Pick the songs which best reflect what you want to say about the album". All the better if you can manage both obviously.

But if Side A was something like:

The Fear

It's A Dirty World

Party Hard

Help The Aged

This Is Hardcore

A Little Soul

...you've got one hell of a stong list of songs with themes to send the Smash Hits readers running to embrace, er, Embrace. 

From cocaine psychosis to dancer-directed lust with a helping of self-loathing and a dogged desire to continue the decadence in the first three tracks. In particular I like the fact that there's no let-up from the captivating opener. Instead of the downbeat Dishes complete with lyrics likely to irk many ("Oh, isn't he great comparing himself to Jesus again at the end as if we didn't realise how clever it was at the start?"), we get two more songs that are bold and loud and  exciting and a clear stamp of Pulp #4(5?). 

Swiftly followed by three reflective songs, pondering on the worries and nature of ageing, porn as fame as hollowness and finally the crutch of bad fathering. What more could you possibly want?

Side B is far trickier to reconcile though. I love TV Movie but recognise it as being the most dispensable song on the album. Hatherley makes a case for We Are The Boyz' more obvious hook and brazenness being a better bet than the not thematically dissimilar I'm A Man. Dumber, funn(i)er lyrics than I'm A Man certainly but the latter does get its point over in a more typically clever Jarvis/Pulp style. I think most were agreed that Like A Friend's presence in the reunion sets was a success and it's long been widely held-up as a song worthy of inclusion on the album. Which it always has been for Americans of course.

My Erection, as Fuss Free says, is a great track that would have possibly sounded both the freshest and least-sounding Pulp song on the record. It or Ladies Man, with the detached vocoder sound and experimental nature offers a further change in style making the album even more impressive from a muso point of view. Following This Is Hardcore and The Professional, it gives one answer to the"What exactly do you do for an encore?" and "I'm only trying to give you what you've come to expect" dilemmas. As a bold statement and razor-sharp view of what Pulp thought of their public perception, there can only be one way to start Side B though:

The Professional

Ladies Man/My Erection (but re-titled as ''(Here In) My Lap''. Still want Woolworths to stock it after all)

.........

..........

.........

.........

.........

 and then I don't know.

 

Seductive Barry is more admirable than enjoyable but as one of the more adventurous tracks recorded during the era and the not irrelevant lyrical theme of facing up to the object of your desires, (certainly a line can be drawn between it, the title track and Dirty World) it does merit its inclusion.

I am fond of Sylvia, even if Chris Thomas and Mark Webber are having far too much fun on it while We Are The Boyz or I'm A Man deserve at most one slot between them. 

Dishes could be shunted down towards the end - an admission that the speaker has learned the futility of the drugs/sex/partying pandering of the first part of the album. Like A Friend provides a fine penultimate jolt. And to round it off, and so as not to maintain the oft-criticised unconvincing, faux happy ending of the original, we cull either The Day After The Revolution or Glory Days/Cocaine Socialism. 

Personally, I think Cocaine Socialism should have been a stand-alone single on the week of the 1997 General Election. I know Jarvis said he didn't have the stomach/balls ("Give them back to me, please") to release it at the time but if technology had been advanced to what we have now where established bands "drop" their new lead-track as a give-away mp3 amidst little bluster, it may well have come to pass that Cocaine Socialism would have totes pwned Things Can Only Get Better and made Noely Gallagher look sheepishly into his glass of champers at number ten.

Jarvis did upload Cunts Are Running The World onto Myspace without warning after all (albeit a year after the even that inspired/angered him to write it. Still, Jarvis and timing, the twain don't always meet).

So, more questions than answers really. As it was upon its release fifteen years ago. Whatever way you shuffle, re-order it and bring in the overlooked star players on the bench there is still no sign of a hit single there! Which Island were presumably sweating on and praying for after the costs of recording the album and filming the promos, particularly the one for This Is Hardcore.

I've never been quite convinced by the "There were loads of songs that could have been put on to make it Different Class II and more poppy" line either. Certainly not those I've mentioned above. Maybe We Are The Boyz though it is throwaway in nature and likely would have been more popular with the townies than the mis-shapes. Street Operator, You Are The One, Modern Marriage? Catchier but light-weight, and under-cooked in their demo form. There's certainly no Live On/We Can Dance Again/After You "OMG, that would have been huge!" song in there. What there are, though, in my unwieldy opinion, are a clutch of great songs which would have made a fractured, flawed album that bit more brave and brilliant. 



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The Only Way is Down

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Lots of interesting points there.

Agree with your scepticism about the alleged "Different Class II" songs. Unless they were all chucked out before the demo stage even. In the Deluxe Edition sleevenotes Jarvis cites You Are The One as the kind of song that would have made the album more pop-accessible. In that case, it seems that it's far better that they took the direction they did!

If they'd tried to make another album in a similar vein as DC, that would surely have been a mistake. It wouldn't have been as good, and it would have burst their bubble just as effectively as TiH did, if not more so. Blur did it with The Great Escape - there are some good bits on there but on the whole it's a summation of everything anyone ever accuses Blur of!

Like a Friend / The Professional. I dunno, I like them but they both sound a bit B-sidey to me. LaF because it's a bit rough-hewn, no chorus etc; The Professional because the lyrics are a bit too jokey (albeit in a very gallows sort of way). We are the Boyz is a favourite of mine but again, it's a bit too much of a knuckle-dragging throwaway to make sense on an album like Hardcore. On the other hand, maybe it could've been their Song 2!

I dunno, I seem to be saying the same thing about a lot of songs. Maybe the songs that don't fit on the album should have been the album! So that would be:

Cocaine Socialism
We Are the Boyz
The Professional
Modern Marriage
Like a Friend
Dirty World
Ladies' Man
erm, Laughing Boy? That Boy's Evil??

There's an enjoyable little sleaze-pop album there.

Agree with your point about how, flawed as it is, TiH works on its own terms as both a musical statement and a document of a band going through troubled times. I admire the ambition and the vision that went into it, and the fact that it's (mostly) an honest document of where they were at. They were probably aware that they had enough money and goodwill behind them to make whatever record they wanted to at that point (even though there probably was a degree of pressure for another Common People), so fair play to them for trying to Do Something with it.

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Hardcore

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I think the first half of Glory Days is brilliant. It peters out in the second half. I don't get the love for Cocaine Socialism.

Day After the Revolution is another good track, but I feel like its been widely forgotten due to the 15 minute drone making it an unfriendly to mp3 players.

Surly, the hypothetical "Different Class II" would have been culled from unreleased His n Hers and Different Class demos like Frightened, You're not Blind, We Can Dance Again, Paula, Catcliffe Shakedown and Don't Lose It plus a few new songs. It could have been a good album, actually.

 



-- Edited by Fuss Free on Saturday 3rd of August 2013 10:13:45 AM

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Thanks Eammon & Sturdy, this thread is going to be very useful reading when I come to making my alternate tracklist.
One idea I saw earlier but can't find (damn that useless search function!) was starting with TIH and ending with a reprise of TIH - i.e the End Of The Line Remix. I'm not 100% on that, but it's still a neat enough idea - topping and taliling would avoid that drift into classic rock.

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I know cocaine socialism and glory days are basically the same song but cocaine socialism is so much better and I """get""" why it wasn't on the album but glory days is such a snore to me every time I listen to it I wish it was cocaine socialism in its place

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Quiet Revolutionary

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I love the album as it is but it would have been nice to have an extended version of TIH with the End Of The Line Mix fading into the song (like the live version) . It really makes a big difference



-- Edited by shotoki on Monday 5th of August 2013 10:16:52 AM

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Fuss Free wrote:

[would've included] Paula.... ....could have been a good album, actually.


 DOES NOT COMPUTE



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The Only Way is Down

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Fuss Free wrote:


Day After the Revolution is another good track, but I feel like its been widely forgotten due to the 15 minute drone making it an unfriendly to mp3 players.

Surly, the hypothetical "Different Class II" would have been culled from unreleased His n Hers and Different Class demos like Frightened, You're not Blind, We Can Dance Again, Paula, Catcliffe Shakedown and Don't Lose It plus a few new songs. It could have been a good album, actually.

 


 

Agreed on Day After The Revolution. The drone (the only clear La Monte Young influence according to Hatherley. I'm more inclined to think that Pulp left it in for the lulz) makes the song and album more awkward. I remember wondering if a hidden track was about to start any moment when I first heard it (Is that how Like A Friend comes in on the US edition?). A couple of minutes of the sustained note and the same point would have been made more succinctly. Anyway...

Regarding Different Class II, one thing that the reissues showed and that made me admire Pulp that bit more was the "cleaning of the slate" at the end of each era. A lazier or less confident band might have kept back some of the HnH/DC offcuts you mention and spruced them up for the next release. But with the exception of After You this year, Pulp never regurgitated stuff in different forms years later (I guess you could argue Babies being re-released). Even lyrically, Jarvis kept a lot of good lines unused where they were - although those pudgy fifteen year olds were hard to keep down I guess.

I do wonder if there were even more songs from early on in the making of Hardcore that fit the earlier pop-success description. As Sturdy says, Jarvis citing You Are The One as an example suggests, if so, we aint missing much. I recall Jarvis mentioning to Chris Evans on TFI Friday that they had written about forty songs during Hardcore's creation but, in typical self-deprecating style, that "most of them were rubbish". A random number, I'm sure, but maybe there were a few other things, instrumental-only very possibly, left unfinished and that didn't even make the demo stage. Having said that, Chris Thomas sent them home from a session in November 1996 when all they had was Help The Aged and a Northern Souls backing track. The former was, I think, the only thing they managed to write on tour in 1996 and the latter, in its instrumental form would have been pretty close to a Common People re-thread. This suggests they were really struggling creatively.

Mark, do you know if they had written much else other than the two songs aforementioned, before Russell left? The recording history on PulpWiki, originally lifted largely from the old official site, shows a glut of new songs being demoed at the start of 1997 http://www.pulpwiki.net/Pulp/ThisIsHardcoreLPDemos. So they either had at least written a lot of those immediately prior to Russell's departure and Jarvis' meltdown in New York or, on his return, they hit the ground running and wrote them very quickly indeed. Jarvis/Pulp's song-writing modus operandi often appeared to be large periods of inactivity before a frenzied, productive period of writing and recording so I guess it wouldn't be too unusual. Either way, difficult to imagine them having even more reams of material but in a similar vein to Different Class.

 



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The Only Way is Down

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Nice stuff Eamonn and Sturdy, this has been a very interesting thread to read. I don't have much to add but to me TiH is very much half an album at best and to make matters worse it is front stacked. I have rarely ever listened to side 2, even piecemeal. Also, despite how much I love tracks like The Professional and Ladies Man I don't really think that they could fit into the album structure. This period is marked by a lot of standalone songs rather than a cohesive set of songs designed for an album in my opinion.

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