Sarah, I think that the first album is a big, big grower. For me it is one of the albums that grows and grows and grows with every listen.

The second album I think is a mixed bag. Some days I will really love certain songs and dislike others. Other days I will like those I disliked and visa versa. I think that maybe Jarvis put too much variety in that album, which is strange as I am normally critical of bands sounding too generic. So the songs are each good on there own, but consistently I don't the album is that great.

I'm not that impressed by Jarvis solo stuff either, some songs are OK or quite good if you're in a really positive mode but when you're cheering over the fact that you can hear what Jarvis is singing (like on many of the songs from the FC- recordings) is not a good sign.
But now when Jarvis is single again, maybe the sexual frustration is coming back? Although if that's means another "Angela" I really don't know if I'm up for it.

I haven't listened to Further Complications in a long while, and I'm also going to say, insofar as I know bugger all about music production, it's the producer... (I guess? That stands to reason to me, but I'm always willing to learn to shut up about stuff I know nothing about!) The live songs sounded so much more interesting, so I guess that's the case? I heard Girls Like It Too on iPlayer, and am going to chuck this on the "Not again..." disappointment which came along with I Never Said I Was Deep's final version.

I think there's a good album between Jarvis and Further Complications - lots of 'good' stuff, few 'amazing' ones (Disney Time being the prime example, I think)

Mike points out something I've often thought about, it'd have been better with Nick, Candida and Mark along too - there's little doubt Cocker was always a major part of the magic of Pulp (well, gee...) but I'm starting to think it was a much more evenly distributed magic when it came to the sound of the records. I wondered not too long ago what would happen if they made music without Cocker. Would we like that as much as we like - or otherwise - Cocker's solo stuff?

-- Edited by Ste on Wednesday 21st of October 2009 08:57:17 PM

Ste wrote:

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I haven't listened to Further Complications in a long while, and I'm also going to say, insofar as I know bugger all about music production, it's the producer... (I guess? That stands to reason to me, but I'm always willing to learn to shut up about stuff I know nothing about!) The live songs sounded so much more interesting, so I guess that's the case? I heard Girls Like It Too on iPlayer, and am going to chuck this on the "Not again..." disappointment which came along with I Never Said I Was Deep's final version.

I think there's a good album between Jarvis and Further Complications - lots of 'good' stuff, few 'amazing' ones (Disney Time being the prime example, I think)

Mike points out something I've often thought about, it'd have been better with Nick, Candida and Mark along too - there's little doubt Cocker was always a major part of the magic of Pulp (well, gee...) but I'm starting to think it was a much more evenly distributed magic when it came to the sound of the records. I wondered not too long ago what would happen if they made music without Cocker. Would we like that as much as we like - or otherwise - Cocker's solo stuff?

-- Edited by Ste on Wednesday 21st of October 2009 08:57:17 PM

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Well, the production is a hell lot more different, you're right, especially on further complications, compared to Pulp. But you cant really compare Pulp sound and this one. I don't think the musician are important here, it's the instrument used in Pulp (especially the keyboards) that you miss on Jarvis solo material. At least that's what i understood, reading your post. Guitars on FC are in fact really close to what they used to do on This is Hardcore, but they are the main instrument. They weren't in Pulp, on most songs.

Ste wrote:

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I haven't listened to Further Complications in a long while, and I'm also going to say, insofar as I know bugger all about music production, it's the producer...

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Well, I think the production on Further Complications is quite good. I don't listen to the record much, but then, I don't listen to any records much these days.

Now let me enlighten you on Steve Albini's process. To the best of my knowledge (and I've known people who've recorded with Albini in the past), Albini takes a very hands-off approach to producing. Albini sees himself as an engineer and facilitator:

"It always offended me when I was in the studio and the engineer or the assumed producer for the session would start bossing the band around. That always seemed like a horrible insult to me. The band was paying money for the privilege of being in a recording studio, and normally when you pay for something, you get to say how it's done. So, I made up my mind when I started engineering professionally that I wasn't going to behave like that. SOURCE


He doesn't try to insert himself into a band's music. He's been quite outspoken about that. Albini's philosophy is that a band has a more intimate understanding of their own abilities and their interests, and it's better if he is just there to help them realize it.

Albini built his recording studio to facilitate bands who want to capture some of their live sound. Bands go to Albini for four reasons:
1- He can facilitate a live band
2- He records in analog
3- He is cheap
4- He lends indie cache

Jarvis listed all these as reasons, except for number 4, explicitly in his initial press release. I am sure the indie cache was also a motivating factor.

Albini produces something like 100 records a year, and the longest he's ever worked on any one album was 4 months (I'm guessing that was In Utero).

In his own business practices, Albini charges the same affordable rate to all his clients. He always deals with the bands directly, and he is still the guy that answers the phone in the studio. He earns a fee of $350 a day as an engineer, and draws a salary of $24,000 a year from Electrical Audio.

So, I can't see blaming anybody but Jarvis if you aren't happy with the album. If Jarvis wasn't satisfied with the final results, he certainly could have gone back and re-recorded the whole damned thing and it was still have cost less than the video for 'The Trees'.

Ste wrote:

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...it'd have been better with Nick, Candida and Mark along too -  I'm starting to think it was a much more evenly distributed magic when it came to the sound of the records.

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Well, Russell's opinion perhaps... but... lets face it... We Love Life was a crap record and This is Hardcore is more interesting for what's not on it than what actually is. Democracy is great and all, but it's not known for producing great art, and certainly not efficiently.


-- Edited by Fuss Free on Saturday 24th of October 2009 08:24:27 PM

weed wrote:

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Not get to know live versions of the songs via poor quality youtube videos and dodgy mobile phone recordings first and then compare them to what eventually turns up on record.

Yes the songs on FC sound much better live - so they should! When I see a band live I wanna hear them play the songs a bit more... well - lively!


If anyone thinks they know how to produce a record better than FC (or We Love Life for that matter) then, frankly I'd like to hear it 'cos it must sound freakin' amazing!

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Fair comment on the listening to live version of songs before the record comes out (something I did, both by seeing him live last December and listening to recordings on youtube), and it´s certainly something I´d think about twice before doing again in future for fear of it spoiling the listening of an album when it eventually comes out.

But you can´t say that FC should sound much better live - Albini´s raison d´etre, as FF posted, is to ´´capture´´ the live sound. And, with regard to some songs, (only a couple, but being as they´re two of the stronger Jarvis tracks in years, it´s a crucial couple) I don´t think he did. Maybe the band would have been better off rehearsing and rehearsing until they were confident enough that they could ´´nail´´ a song in one live-take, like they largely have done in their live shows and on radio sessions this past few months.

Leftovers and Never Said I Was Deep are fantastic songs which on record have ended-up with the vocals being too quiet at times, the music being too plodding at others, and generally not sounding raw enough which the bare bones emotion of the songs lyrics beg them to be. All of that is present in the Radcliffe and Maconie session of Leftovers and the Riley one of Never Said I Was Deep.

Girls Like It Too ironically does have the ´´rough vocal´´ missing from the above, but it´s a gloriuos pop song that requires a bit of over-laying and sheen that someone like Chris Thomas would have got. Maybe it was left as a ´´demo´´ after it didn´t make it onto the album.

-- Edited by Eamonn on Sunday 25th of October 2009 05:41:06 PM

SarahAWilson wrote:

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I know this will sound like heresy, but I have to say, wholeheartedly, I'm not that impressed by Jarvis's solo material.

Now I appreciate that it it's good work, but it doesn't stir me the same way the old songs used to.

Don't get me wrong, I really liked Relaxed Muscle. "Heavy Nite" was a really sexy album, but with the last 2 lps, I feel as though some of the passion seems to be missing, some of the for want of a better word, sex, is missing. It comes across a bit...erm...well....neutered.

Sorry guys. I just felt that had to be said.

::don't throw me off the board::

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heresy?  No, I totally agree.  Apart from a few tracks like Cunts, From A to I, Fat Kidz and Further Complications, it has been pretty underwhelming.   I'm not that surprised, as I can't think of any solo act that was ever better than the group they originated from (Julian Cope possibly the closest, but still not up to the Teardrop Explodes at their best).

I also liked Relaxed Muscle and there have been other good collaborations (All Seeing I), but given I haven't bought the Further Complications album yet, it's obviously not that essential ( I doubtless will get it in time). 

 

Grr, haven't been on the net for a couple of weeks & I'm too late for the Lamacq broardcast.
Guess I'll have to wait 'til the 6th.
Even then, the postal strikes'll probably scupper my delivery.

Nick Cave is better than The Birthday Party and Scott Walker is better than the Walker Brothers. 

Jarvis needs to stop bothering at all with singles, he's already written like eight perfect A Sides.  He needs to make a record that's not scaled down from Pulp, but even more. He should take five years and make a double album that's Sheffield: Sex City meets Tilt meets Abattoir Blues.

I have no idea who on earth could possibly think that Disney Time was one of the best Jarvis solo tracks.....

In my opinion, the first solo album is really interesting, in terms of melody and instrumentation. Some great pop songs (Don't let him waste your time, Black Magic, Cunts) and lovely understated moments (baby's coming back to me, I will kill again), but then some totally shit tracks (Dinsey Time, Tonight). Mainly, it's an interesting pop album and a grower. But it's lyrically pretty weak, and it doesn't hold together as an album that well.

However, Further Complications, whilst having none of the lush pop songs of his debut, is definitely Jarvis' best work lyrically since This Is Hardcore- a witty and beautifully self deprecating album, the raw production goes hand in hand with the raw emotion on display. Most importantly, you believe every word that Jarvis is singing. These aren't little stories- he's singing about himself, at a low ebb, just like on The Fear, just like on Countdown.
Musically, the album isn't as interesting as his debut, however the 60s garage guitars hold the album together perfectly and the songs are still melodically rich.

I think that Jarvis has much more of an identity as a solo performer since the release of Further Complications. It's not perfect, but it was the album he needed to make.

I downloaded "Girls Like it Too" on Monday and listened to it about two dozen times.  I like it very much - the song itself is a-side material and could have been Jarvis' most popular hit if he would care for such kind of success any more.

However the Albini production (sorry: recording) doesn't work here. It sounds like a demo version. Perhaps we can put it in the shelf of the "legendary unfinished songs" (cf. "Live on", "It's a Dirty World", "After You").

Be that as it may I'm singing the song for two days now

-- Edited by MerkinMuffley on Wednesday 11th of November 2009 08:36:54 AM