Hooray - just as we´d hoped and predicted. (Though I would have preferred Never Said I Was Deep instead of Further Comps).

Just what a Double A-side means on a non-cd single release by an artist on an independent label is a moot point (though maybe the promo sent to radio will have Girls Like It Too as the first track - or maybe there´ll be a video for it?).

And well done Weed, you were practically bang-on with it being released five years since John Peel´s death (JP´s brother came up with the phrase ´Girls Like It Too´).

Finally, the fact that it´s double-a, does this mean we won´t get the remaining songs recorded during the album sessions, The Night They Let Me Out of the Home and Apparently (though we now all have the latter due to the Japanese edition of the album featuring bonus tracks)? As I can´t imagine a third single is likely.

An EP containing all four songs might have been a better idea. Still, great to know we´ll finally hear the We Can Dance Again/Cuckoo of the late 00´s pretty soon.

-- Edited by Eamonn on Thursday 1st of October 2009 02:39:17 PM

I just left a comment on the official site asking for a digital release. If we all do the same, maybe that will help...

According to the Rough Trade website a copy of the press release will be included and only 300 copies will be available in the UK. I'm sure the price is alright for most but do any of you know anywhere cheaper online that might sell this?

yeah but the album was available on CD so if you wanted digital versions you just had to buy that instead of the vinyl. No one forced you to buy the vinyl version. No one pulled a gun on you and said DAMNIT ANDY YOU WILL BUY THE VINYL VERSION OF THIS ALBUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You did it yourself.

I'm wondering if this will be available domestically in the U.S., or will I need to buy it as an import?

crazyshady wrote:

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As above

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******************, everyone speak to each other here, you're just being rude for no reason.

I just think its moronic, its like they dont want to sell records, plus it's a waste of good material. I just said what they did before was a good idea, but the way they release that particular new song isnt. A lot of things are wrong about the music industry nowadays, but record companies dont do anything to make it better. It's my opinion and that's it, ********************************

-- Edited by andy on Thursday 1st of October 2009 08:18:12 PM


-- Edited by ArrGee on Thursday 1st of October 2009 08:48:34 PM

With my admin hat on, please be a little more civil.  I have edited a couple of posts, however I have tried to keep the points made as I think they are interesting.  Don't think of it as censorship, I only removed the more personal parts.

Obviously a couple of you feel passionate about this, but please remember THE SECOND RULE
... don't be an arse. This is pretty much a judgement call, I know, but to me it means no over-the-top personal attacks on other posters .....



-- Edited by ArrGee on Thursday 1st of October 2009 08:50:56 PM

crazyshady wrote:

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Well of course it is over the top. I am a larger than life person so my posts reflect that. Anyways what you have left in my post is enough to get the point across. A point that i'm sure many agree with.

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Nothing wrong with being over the top or larger than life, but please bear the SECOND RULE in mind when responding to others.  I don't make the rules, our Friendly Neighbourhood Benevolent Dictator does that.   He has the final say around here.

 http://www.activeboard.com/forum.spark?aBID=93104&p=3&topicID=10825513

-- Edited by ArrGee on Thursday 1st of October 2009 09:04:11 PM

You need to realise that people who BUY THAT VINYL are the only ones who will have access to the B side. It would make more sense if there was a CD single that had a completely different B side but there isn't. So for people who buy the vinyl it doesnt matter.........vinyl is your only option and you have no choice but to buy it if you want it. It is not mass produced and is obviously just released for fans and collectors hence their being a limited supply. To start releasing it online and on CDs and then vinyl renders it pointless. Why just make a limited supply? Why not just play it by ear and just make them as long as the demand is there? Doing that completely goes against the purpose of the single.

CDs do not reflect the best sound quality available and even moreso with this album being recorded live with live instruments. None of the instruments are digital. Vinyl being an analogue format will give you the best clarity for each instrument and is the closest you will get to how the song actually sounded in the recording studio. Also the speed at which 7" and 12" records play is identical to the way they were recorded. I am sure if you compare any vinyl and CD versions you will notice vinyl plays a little bit faster.

You can want to have everything in digital and analogue but Jarvis obviously didn't think this track was good enough for the album. People are lucky that there is a second single at all from this album and as you say it is sometimes the only way to get rare tracks nowadays.....consider this a 'rare' track. You have the chance to own it.

crazyshady wrote:

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You need to realise that people who BUY THAT VINYL are the only ones who will have access to the B side. It would make more sense if there was a CD single that had a completely different B side but there isn't. So for people who buy the vinyl it doesnt matter.........vinyl is your only option and you have no choice but to buy it if you want it. It is not mass produced and is obviously just released for fans and collectors hence their being a limited supply. To start releasing it online and on CDs and then vinyl renders it pointless. Why just make a limited supply? Why not just play it by ear and just make them as long as the demand is there? Doing that completely goes against the purpose of the single.

CDs do not reflect the best sound quality available and even moreso with this album being recorded live with live instruments. None of the instruments are digital. Vinyl being an analogue format will give you the best clarity for each instrument and is the closest you will get to how the song actually sounded in the recording studio. Also the speed at which 7" and 12" records play is identical to the way they were recorded. I am sure if you compare any vinyl and CD versions you will notice vinyl plays a little bit faster.

You can want to have everything in digital and analogue but Jarvis obviously didn't think this track was good enough for the album. People are lucky that there is a second single at all from this album and as you say it is sometimes the only way to get rare tracks nowadays.....consider this a 'rare' track. You have the chance to own it.

---

I agree with most of that, i just think its weird promotion. Limited editions were always good for fans, but it's a single, and it's gotta appeal to more people. We live in a world with vinyl players, but also cds and mostly ipods, and that's how people listen to music nowadays, and i think it's good when people have options. That's the only way to save music.

Rare is good, but what's wrong with your best work being heard by a lot of people : coz that's the debate here. Girls Like It Too is a killer track (despite what Jarvis seems to think), and only 1000 people will have access to it. I feel lucky i'll have it, but then i also feel like Jarvis is wasting his best material. And a lot of people here will ask for a rip of the bside. So it'll end up being distributed illegally...

Music shouldnt be hard to get, it should be easy (not easy "free" like now), like it was before, when you went to your local store to buy the new singles of your favourite band, on whatever format. I used to buy cds and vinyl versions of each singles few years ago. Now it's rare to have that kinda option, and that's kinda sad. It used to be a real treat every 3 months with a new single that had 3 or even 4 bsides in the 90s. I guess the music industry changed, but I miss those days.

 

Is anyone else having bother ordering this from the Rough Trade site? The window won't open for me. All I get is a message pop up saying that my orde will be shipped on release then it just reverts to the former page. grrrrr!

I'm gonna have about 30 copies in my basket now! Thanks for your help Will!

crazyshady wrote:

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It is not mass produced and is obviously just released for fans and collectors hence their being a limited supply.

 

 

 

I agree.  Jarv won't be winning any new fans soon.

weed wrote:

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Just for the record (no pun intended)

I'd like a mp3 release too. I'd like to use this song to play when I DJ from time to time. It's gonna be awkward for me to even listen to it on vynal - I like this song. I wanna listen to it when I want!




-- Edited by weed on Saturday 10th of October 2009 06:10:56 PM

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Oh boy you're gonna get killed  ! 

andy wrote:

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Update udpate update update update !

Apparently, Girls Like It Too wont be that exclusive to the vinyl. And apparently, Rough Trade is not as stupid as i thought.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Girls-Like-It-Too/dp/B002SEZXH6/ref=dm_ap_trk30

 

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Mmmm...It sounds pretty)))

oh right, i misunderstood ;)

Eamonn wrote:

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Hooray, they´ve listened to our protests - or maybe had planned on an mp3 all along.
Now all we need is a quirky Jarvis-directed video to go with it.

I´ve just listened to the 30 sec sample on amazon - hmm, I´m not sure how well Albini´s sound works. Then again I was a bit disappointed at how Lefovers and I Never Said I Was Deep turned-out after gorging on live renditions of them. Maybe this will be the case again...
And there´s one lyrical alteration already to how he sang it live last year, the second part of the verse starts with ´´Take it slow´´ rather than repeating ´´Don´t you know...´´.

---

I like to think my rant on the official site (and here) backed by you has something to do with it (though i highly doubt it). Vinyl is good, i love it, love playing songs on my shitty turntable, but i also like making my "own" Further Complications LP, and the digital version will allow me to do so.

And about the sound of the song : i guess, like you, we're so used to the live version that the studio version sounds weird. but that was also the feeling i got hearing the album, now i love it.

Would you look at that! Just when pipe up with my humble opinion everything changes! For the record I'd also like to see an end to conflict in the middle east & and world poverty.

I didn't get a confirmation email either, and I ordered mine a few days ago. Either they don't send emails or both our orders have failed!

Just heard Girls Like it too being played on 6music!

Steve Lamac - between 4 and 5 - was nearer 5 if i remember correctly,

starts at 43min20

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/b0072lb2/Monday/console/

cheers again for the tip

Cheers everyone, love it - why the hell didn't he put it on the album?

So is there anyone to get this other than on vinyl? I'm desperate for a copy of it:(

Just listened to it. Blimey, we first heard it when those mad for it Latin American fans posted their recordings on youtube after Jarvis debuted it on his brief tour there back in March last year. A whole 19 months on and we finally get to hear the real thing.

The ´´3 bar gate´´ suddenly sprouted two extra bars! I think the instrumentation on the verses and bridge are too sparse, compared to the full live sound. And the vocal maybe a bit too rough. But that´s what I get for overdosing on live versions of the song for the last year and a half.

Albini = good for the songs that Jarvis wanted to be heavy or rough.. Cf. Further Complications, Angela, Fucking Song, Caucasian Blues, Pilchard. Ironically, I think he missed a trick not giving Leftovers a bit more oomph.

Albini = not great for the more melodic, carefully constructed songs - I Never Said I Was Deep and this (Girls Like It Too). He got the measured Hold Still just right and I think he let Jarvis do whatever he wanted on Discosong. I suppose pop just isn´t Albini´s forte.

Sarah, I think that the first album is a big, big grower. For me it is one of the albums that grows and grows and grows with every listen.

The second album I think is a mixed bag. Some days I will really love certain songs and dislike others. Other days I will like those I disliked and visa versa. I think that maybe Jarvis put too much variety in that album, which is strange as I am normally critical of bands sounding too generic. So the songs are each good on there own, but consistently I don't the album is that great.

I'm not that impressed by Jarvis solo stuff either, some songs are OK or quite good if you're in a really positive mode but when you're cheering over the fact that you can hear what Jarvis is singing (like on many of the songs from the FC- recordings) is not a good sign.
But now when Jarvis is single again, maybe the sexual frustration is coming back? Although if that's means another "Angela" I really don't know if I'm up for it.

I haven't listened to Further Complications in a long while, and I'm also going to say, insofar as I know bugger all about music production, it's the producer... (I guess? That stands to reason to me, but I'm always willing to learn to shut up about stuff I know nothing about!) The live songs sounded so much more interesting, so I guess that's the case? I heard Girls Like It Too on iPlayer, and am going to chuck this on the "Not again..." disappointment which came along with I Never Said I Was Deep's final version.

I think there's a good album between Jarvis and Further Complications - lots of 'good' stuff, few 'amazing' ones (Disney Time being the prime example, I think)

Mike points out something I've often thought about, it'd have been better with Nick, Candida and Mark along too - there's little doubt Cocker was always a major part of the magic of Pulp (well, gee...) but I'm starting to think it was a much more evenly distributed magic when it came to the sound of the records. I wondered not too long ago what would happen if they made music without Cocker. Would we like that as much as we like - or otherwise - Cocker's solo stuff?

-- Edited by Ste on Wednesday 21st of October 2009 08:57:17 PM

Ste wrote:

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I haven't listened to Further Complications in a long while, and I'm also going to say, insofar as I know bugger all about music production, it's the producer... (I guess? That stands to reason to me, but I'm always willing to learn to shut up about stuff I know nothing about!) The live songs sounded so much more interesting, so I guess that's the case? I heard Girls Like It Too on iPlayer, and am going to chuck this on the "Not again..." disappointment which came along with I Never Said I Was Deep's final version.

I think there's a good album between Jarvis and Further Complications - lots of 'good' stuff, few 'amazing' ones (Disney Time being the prime example, I think)

Mike points out something I've often thought about, it'd have been better with Nick, Candida and Mark along too - there's little doubt Cocker was always a major part of the magic of Pulp (well, gee...) but I'm starting to think it was a much more evenly distributed magic when it came to the sound of the records. I wondered not too long ago what would happen if they made music without Cocker. Would we like that as much as we like - or otherwise - Cocker's solo stuff?

-- Edited by Ste on Wednesday 21st of October 2009 08:57:17 PM

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Well, the production is a hell lot more different, you're right, especially on further complications, compared to Pulp. But you cant really compare Pulp sound and this one. I don't think the musician are important here, it's the instrument used in Pulp (especially the keyboards) that you miss on Jarvis solo material. At least that's what i understood, reading your post. Guitars on FC are in fact really close to what they used to do on This is Hardcore, but they are the main instrument. They weren't in Pulp, on most songs.

Ste wrote:

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I haven't listened to Further Complications in a long while, and I'm also going to say, insofar as I know bugger all about music production, it's the producer...

---

---

Well, I think the production on Further Complications is quite good. I don't listen to the record much, but then, I don't listen to any records much these days.

Now let me enlighten you on Steve Albini's process. To the best of my knowledge (and I've known people who've recorded with Albini in the past), Albini takes a very hands-off approach to producing. Albini sees himself as an engineer and facilitator:

"It always offended me when I was in the studio and the engineer or the assumed producer for the session would start bossing the band around. That always seemed like a horrible insult to me. The band was paying money for the privilege of being in a recording studio, and normally when you pay for something, you get to say how it's done. So, I made up my mind when I started engineering professionally that I wasn't going to behave like that. SOURCE


He doesn't try to insert himself into a band's music. He's been quite outspoken about that. Albini's philosophy is that a band has a more intimate understanding of their own abilities and their interests, and it's better if he is just there to help them realize it.

Albini built his recording studio to facilitate bands who want to capture some of their live sound. Bands go to Albini for four reasons:
1- He can facilitate a live band
2- He records in analog
3- He is cheap
4- He lends indie cache

Jarvis listed all these as reasons, except for number 4, explicitly in his initial press release. I am sure the indie cache was also a motivating factor.

Albini produces something like 100 records a year, and the longest he's ever worked on any one album was 4 months (I'm guessing that was In Utero).

In his own business practices, Albini charges the same affordable rate to all his clients. He always deals with the bands directly, and he is still the guy that answers the phone in the studio. He earns a fee of $350 a day as an engineer, and draws a salary of $24,000 a year from Electrical Audio.

So, I can't see blaming anybody but Jarvis if you aren't happy with the album. If Jarvis wasn't satisfied with the final results, he certainly could have gone back and re-recorded the whole damned thing and it was still have cost less than the video for 'The Trees'.

Ste wrote:

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...it'd have been better with Nick, Candida and Mark along too -  I'm starting to think it was a much more evenly distributed magic when it came to the sound of the records.

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Well, Russell's opinion perhaps... but... lets face it... We Love Life was a crap record and This is Hardcore is more interesting for what's not on it than what actually is. Democracy is great and all, but it's not known for producing great art, and certainly not efficiently.


-- Edited by Fuss Free on Saturday 24th of October 2009 08:24:27 PM

weed wrote:

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Not get to know live versions of the songs via poor quality youtube videos and dodgy mobile phone recordings first and then compare them to what eventually turns up on record.

Yes the songs on FC sound much better live - so they should! When I see a band live I wanna hear them play the songs a bit more... well - lively!


If anyone thinks they know how to produce a record better than FC (or We Love Life for that matter) then, frankly I'd like to hear it 'cos it must sound freakin' amazing!

---

Fair comment on the listening to live version of songs before the record comes out (something I did, both by seeing him live last December and listening to recordings on youtube), and it´s certainly something I´d think about twice before doing again in future for fear of it spoiling the listening of an album when it eventually comes out.

But you can´t say that FC should sound much better live - Albini´s raison d´etre, as FF posted, is to ´´capture´´ the live sound. And, with regard to some songs, (only a couple, but being as they´re two of the stronger Jarvis tracks in years, it´s a crucial couple) I don´t think he did. Maybe the band would have been better off rehearsing and rehearsing until they were confident enough that they could ´´nail´´ a song in one live-take, like they largely have done in their live shows and on radio sessions this past few months.

Leftovers and Never Said I Was Deep are fantastic songs which on record have ended-up with the vocals being too quiet at times, the music being too plodding at others, and generally not sounding raw enough which the bare bones emotion of the songs lyrics beg them to be. All of that is present in the Radcliffe and Maconie session of Leftovers and the Riley one of Never Said I Was Deep.

Girls Like It Too ironically does have the ´´rough vocal´´ missing from the above, but it´s a gloriuos pop song that requires a bit of over-laying and sheen that someone like Chris Thomas would have got. Maybe it was left as a ´´demo´´ after it didn´t make it onto the album.

-- Edited by Eamonn on Sunday 25th of October 2009 05:41:06 PM

SarahAWilson wrote:

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I know this will sound like heresy, but I have to say, wholeheartedly, I'm not that impressed by Jarvis's solo material.

Now I appreciate that it it's good work, but it doesn't stir me the same way the old songs used to.

Don't get me wrong, I really liked Relaxed Muscle. "Heavy Nite" was a really sexy album, but with the last 2 lps, I feel as though some of the passion seems to be missing, some of the for want of a better word, sex, is missing. It comes across a bit...erm...well....neutered.

Sorry guys. I just felt that had to be said.

::don't throw me off the board::

---

heresy?  No, I totally agree.  Apart from a few tracks like Cunts, From A to I, Fat Kidz and Further Complications, it has been pretty underwhelming.   I'm not that surprised, as I can't think of any solo act that was ever better than the group they originated from (Julian Cope possibly the closest, but still not up to the Teardrop Explodes at their best).

I also liked Relaxed Muscle and there have been other good collaborations (All Seeing I), but given I haven't bought the Further Complications album yet, it's obviously not that essential ( I doubtless will get it in time). 

 

Grr, haven't been on the net for a couple of weeks & I'm too late for the Lamacq broardcast.
Guess I'll have to wait 'til the 6th.
Even then, the postal strikes'll probably scupper my delivery.

Nick Cave is better than The Birthday Party and Scott Walker is better than the Walker Brothers. 

Jarvis needs to stop bothering at all with singles, he's already written like eight perfect A Sides.  He needs to make a record that's not scaled down from Pulp, but even more. He should take five years and make a double album that's Sheffield: Sex City meets Tilt meets Abattoir Blues.

I have no idea who on earth could possibly think that Disney Time was one of the best Jarvis solo tracks.....

In my opinion, the first solo album is really interesting, in terms of melody and instrumentation. Some great pop songs (Don't let him waste your time, Black Magic, Cunts) and lovely understated moments (baby's coming back to me, I will kill again), but then some totally shit tracks (Dinsey Time, Tonight). Mainly, it's an interesting pop album and a grower. But it's lyrically pretty weak, and it doesn't hold together as an album that well.

However, Further Complications, whilst having none of the lush pop songs of his debut, is definitely Jarvis' best work lyrically since This Is Hardcore- a witty and beautifully self deprecating album, the raw production goes hand in hand with the raw emotion on display. Most importantly, you believe every word that Jarvis is singing. These aren't little stories- he's singing about himself, at a low ebb, just like on The Fear, just like on Countdown.
Musically, the album isn't as interesting as his debut, however the 60s garage guitars hold the album together perfectly and the songs are still melodically rich.

I think that Jarvis has much more of an identity as a solo performer since the release of Further Complications. It's not perfect, but it was the album he needed to make.

I downloaded "Girls Like it Too" on Monday and listened to it about two dozen times.  I like it very much - the song itself is a-side material and could have been Jarvis' most popular hit if he would care for such kind of success any more.

However the Albini production (sorry: recording) doesn't work here. It sounds like a demo version. Perhaps we can put it in the shelf of the "legendary unfinished songs" (cf. "Live on", "It's a Dirty World", "After You").

Be that as it may I'm singing the song for two days now

-- Edited by MerkinMuffley on Wednesday 11th of November 2009 08:36:54 AM

After a few listens, you tend to forget the production. And I think it would have been too cheesy it they had produced it too clean.

I still cant get why he's left it off the album, it's like the missing link to a perfect Further Complications. I'm glad we got to hear it though :)

Well, i agree totally with Cocaine Socialism and It's a Dirty World.

But, i don't think tracks such as Pilchard make FC a better album, in fact its worse. It breaks the flow of the record. Track 3 is clearly where Girls Like It Too should have been with I never said i was deep pushed back on the tracklisting, but it would have been too perfect.

I guess since Different Class, Jarvis doesnt like perfection. It's ok, but it could have been better. We've been saying that for 10 years now. He dont want to get big again, i can totally understand that.

Gotta check that. I know it cost me 10 euros (roughly 8 £) for just one vinyl. You gotta love independant labels, eh.

I got Girls Like It Too on eMusic, having forgotten all about it until today. Woo!

Initial reaction: s'alright. Pretty. Would have been one of the more likeable tracks on the album if it had made it in. Certainly strikes me as a stronger song than 90% of the FC lineup, and I don't think it would have diminished the flow or feel of the LP for being included. I want to listen to it some more, which hasn't really happened with the album after several months.