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TOPIC: Mark n' Jarv Aggro


Different Class

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Mark n' Jarv Aggro
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Not trying to stir it (who's listening anyway?) but as a long term fan, the aggro JC inflicted on Webber always bothered me. I remember seeing the 95 Smash Hits Polls footage on TV when Mark was (miming, I suppose) a solo and JC deliberately nearly rammed into him. That seemed odd. Then you've got the Feeling Called Live (can't be bothered with the dots, thank you) vid when Jarv snidely questions Mark's rear of stage cardboard cutout over whether he's 'tripped over his guitar lead again' in a sneery voice I've only heard used by a sadistically nasty art teacher from my high school. I'm guessing there are more but the fact that this extends to one of the reunion gigs of 2011 when the audience (impressively) vocally responded to this nonsense is noteworthy. JC's never been the rosiest character but why have a go at of all people, MW? I have surmised that it's because Mark is a better musician than JC and that has always irked him. MW is the only member of Pulp I ever met and what a quiet, dignified and approachable person he is. I was just wondering about this, sorry if this has been previously discussed. I can always delete the topic, just interested in your opinions and knowledge. Many thanks



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people always try to show their dominance over others if they feel moral strength. The only question is how is it expressed. Even if its not on purpose, some animal instincts sometimes prevail ) You can even notice it on this forum. This is life

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Common Person

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I watched that Smash Hits Polls thing (youtu.be/CrfA6xEWrG0) and he's probably just messing around, seeing as he does a similar thing to the camera 20 seconds later. He has tried to headbutt Steve Mackey on stage a few times, which just seemed like a playful thing. Maybe he got too invested in the role of the snide/snarky character in 'Common People'.

If he's genuinely picking on Mark Webber a bit... I wouldn't be surprised if it's because Mark's quiet/doesn't fight back/just puts up with his bullshit. JC wouldn't pick on Candida, he probably wouldn't pick on Steve, Russell wouldn't tolerate JC's bullshit at all, Nick seems to deflect it (e.g the home video in which JC asked him about the keys) so Mark gets it.

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200% and Bloody Thirsty

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I guess from the outside it can be hard to determine what's jokey banter and what's genuine malevolence. Wouldn't like to say which side it falls on with Jarvis and Mark - except to say that if Jarvis really had a problem with Mark, he didn't have to invite him into the band in the first place, and if Mark was honestly unhappy about the way he'd been treated he didn't have to come back when they reformed. Who knows though, interpersonal band relationships can be complicated things....

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The Only Way is Down

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You might be right...never seen the Smash Hits poll thing but the "...tripped over his guitar lead" one I always thought was harmless/affectionate even. The two live comments that support your case, imo, are the aforementioned one at Brixton 2011 which was bang out of order ("Mark, you're either part of the solution or part of the problem"). Poor Mark had the temerity to try and get the next song going over one of Jarvis' long speeches which let's be honest, must feel interminable for the band at times. Imagine if you don't know whether your next song on the setlist is going to start in 30 secs or 5 minutes...

Russell mentions in his book how they all thought this incident was poor form from Jarvis who apologised afterwards in the dressing room.

The other one I was thinking of was at their last gig pre-split Auto 2002 when Jarvis says witheringly/sarcastically "Surprise - Mark has already left the stage..."

There's probably a few things going on. They're both quite introverted people by all accounts. Jarvis is also the frontman with attendant narcissistic traits. Live, he aims to a crowd-pleaser in how he acts and what he says to the crowd. Mark retains his common, passive presence. That might jar to, er, Jarvis and come across as quite insipid when Cocker is pumped-up and buoyed by the crowd's reaction. Hence, his belittling of Mark.
Webber being much younger than the rest, a general band dogsbody for years before becoming an official member (once his aptitude and superior musicianship was, let's face it, impossible to ignore - not sure there was much altruism in asking him to become an official member!)...these are all potential power-dynamics at play where Mark is the 'weaker' party.

All the above is obviously cod-psychology on my part. Bands are fucking weird anyway, keeping a healthy/cordial relationship is often the hardest part about being in them.



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All very interesting thoughts, thanks folks. What's funny is, it always looked like water off a duck's back which would've only irked Jarv further. I was always intrigued by Mark's statement that he wrote part of DYRTFT and 'caused a bit of trouble'. I always wondered if it was the lead guitar line on the chorus- nifty work. Ta!

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"Quick on the draw there, Mark, are we?"



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see, it's that kind of thing I never understand- publicly undermining a band mate. You're all in it together and you do that in front of a crowd of strangers. I'd have shouted 'bugger off, Jarvis' very loudly. He was infamously pissed off at Loreley though. Oof- the stage crew must've been so steamed that he up-ended all the monitors at the end of the set- that utter rogue.


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That gig has always been a stand out gig for me. Not because of the strop that Jarvis threw, or the fact that the crowd were a bunch of miserable bastards, BUT the music sounding so RAW. Fantastic !!! Nicks drums sounded great !!!

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Yes, Loreley's great somehow although it really shouldn't be

The more I think about it, the more there's a pattern of him being a bit shitty about Mark onstage. This, Auto, Brixton 2011, Feeling Called Live etc. I remember at Dalby Forest he took the mick out of him for wearing a scarf onstage too. It's all little things on their own but it does make you wonder about the dynamic between them. Maybe someone should ask them...

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Master Of The Universe

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That Smash Hits thing was a treat to watch back in the day. They had to mime to Common People & it was documented that they had to sit around backstage all day, so alcohol had been partaken in. The stage was set up with some chairs for some boy band who were on afterwards, which Pulp weren't happy with... so come stage time El Jarv smashes one of the chairs & pulls his mic apart before just chucking it away altogether.

The 1995 Brixton bit where Jarvis is using the cardboard cutouts to introduce the band - I gathered that Mark's cutout was a little damage and he says something like, "did you trip over your guitar lead, Mark?" He's talking to a cardboard cutout. It's hardly a dig!

2011 Brixton again - he just came across a being a little bit sharp. It was funny though when the crowd stood up for Mark!

And Loreley is just something else entirely! It's jusr off the scale hissy fit. I asked Banksy about it on the Twitters & he said it wasn't all that unusual.

Mr Senior seems to have a bit of a gripe with Mark in his book & I really can't understand it. He seems the most quiet & reserved out of all of them but then something that has stuck in my mind a bit all these years is a quote from Mark during the promo for This Is Hardcorde where he says, "TV Movie hasn't been recorded properly & A Little Soul is just awful!" - which is the last thing you want when you are doing the promo rounds just before your album comes out!

As for them trying to start songs when Jarvis is talking, I don't blame them really. As much as a fan I am of Jarvis' onstage between song patter, he does sometimes go on a little bit too long. At Leeds 2000, after opening with Common People Jarvis sat down on the edge of the stage "for a chat" that lasted ages! Maybe 5 minutes?! & repeatedly stopped Nick from starting the next song... which is all well & good & he's obviously working the crowd in that way that he's so good at but at the end of the set they had to drop 'Babies' - which they could have done with as a big closer after opening with CP & playing a fair few new songs. It was a festival after all.





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The Only Way is Down

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The Cock o't'North gets wrapped-up in being a comedian at times on-stage, it's true.

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Professional

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Mark gets it pretty bad in Russell's book. He even reveals Mark nearly got fired during the reunion tour... seems a bit much to reveal that in a book. Also that the crew didn't seem to like Mark.

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PaulTMA wrote:

Mark gets it pretty bad in Russell's book. He even reveals Mark nearly got fired during the reunion tour... seems a bit much to reveal that in a book. Also that the crew didn't seem to like Mark.


 

Yikes. Havent read the book yet. REAAAALLLLLYYY must now. 

 

What/who was behind the reasoning for almost firing him and why did the crew not like him? 



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PaulTMA wrote:

Mark gets it pretty bad in Russell's book. He even reveals Mark nearly got fired during the reunion tour... seems a bit much to reveal that in a book. Also that the crew didn't seem to like Mark.


 I don't remember there being anything in there about him nearly getting fired!

Russ does come across in the book as having a rather ambivalent attitude to Mark in the book, which I think is understandable all things considered - but that's more reflective of Russell than Mark, and he does describe Mark as "fundamentally a lovely bloke".



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The Only Way is Down

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"All things considered" ...you mean Mark kind of replacing Russell fully once he quit ?



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200% and Bloody Thirsty

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Well yeah. And I'm sure that, while it obviously wasn't what anyone intended, bringing him in as an extra guitarist before that must inevitably have diminished his role a bit.

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The Only Way is Down

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Good point...hadn't really looked at it that way.

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Sturdy wrote:

Well yeah. And I'm sure that, while it obviously wasn't what anyone intended, bringing him in as an extra guitarist before that must inevitably have diminished his role a bit.


 

But thats still no excuse to take it out on mark,  unless he was being an ass about it, which ...who knows? Doubt that, though. 



-- Edited by Nebula on Sunday 29th of August 2021 02:05:45 PM

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As I remember, Mark was brought in on guitar before he joined fully to allow Jarvis to not be tied to a guitar so much & do a bit more of his frontman job.

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200% and Bloody Thirsty

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I don't think Russell was "taking it out" on Mark. Having looked again at the book, if anything he spends more time sticking up for him.

As for Russell saying Mark "nearly got fired" during the reunion tour, I think that's a bit of an overstatement really. There's a bit where he alludes to tension between Mark and the crew, and possibly other members of the band, and he mentions that at one point there are "moves afoot" to have him kicked off the tour. It evidently came and went though, considering he was there till the reunion came to an end, unlike Russell!

In terms of Mark's general role in the band vs Russell's, yes it's absolutely true that he was brought in as an extra pair of hands to take on Jarvis's guitar parts and some extra keyboard bits. No intention for him to 'replace' Russell. But once he'd become an integral part of the band, it can't not have affected Russell's role, considering he'd been the sole guitarist for all those years up to that point.

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Different Class

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I didn't take Russell's book as gospel. As I remember, there's a two page chapter about an incident that never happened culminating in an completely unfunny joke about Gary Numan. I don't recall any aggro directed at Mark, RS seems supportive if anything.

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